Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

I know my SIL (GP) will move her kids to State school and quit her job as a GP, a number of GPs at her small northern prep school. She only works to pay the school fees. I think a lot of people will quit their jobs as they’ll be able to live off one income and that’s depriving the Country of quite a skill set.

Keir, not sure you’ve thought this one through.

100%

Not sure I would want to be treated by a GP with so little interest in their work or care for their patients that they're only doing it to pay their kids school fees.

I know a lot of high earners and most of them have more drive and passion for their work than that. I don't doubt that there will be a few people like your SIL who are motivated only by the money, but I doubt that they're typical.

If fees become unreasonable I could retire earlier than planned too, only working to pay school fees. We already have a btl in catchment area for sought after state school (pays towards school fees at the moment) so would decamp there for a few years if needed.

I'm also a medic (alongside number of other parents at our prep school) and majority will use state system and reduce working hours as salaries are not so high that we can absorb 20% increase on multiple children. I will work enough to keep my profession going but no need to work long hours if not paying fees. PT will cover all the activities and tutoring plus will have enough for holidays and more time to myself.

The birth rate is in decline due to cost of living so likely to be more and more spare places in state schools going forward. Having more families with money likely to be helpful for schools

@Veganator same here

@PuddlesPityParty

"It’s nothing to do with “envy” it’s to do with giving people equal opportunity to thrive and to stop idiots getting into places of power just coz they’re mates / parents / family connections got them there. Look at the state of the U.K. right now and look at the Tory party right now. Half of them don’t deserve to be where they are and wouldn’t be there without their connections, and that’s why we’re in such a shit show. Some of us are trying to look at the bigger picture rather than our own little lives"

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Children of wealthy parents will always have advantageous mates / parents / work connections / family connections that will give them opportunities that children from poorer backgrounds.

For example if you want to get into medical school what really matters (especially with grade inflation) is evidence of your commitment to a medical career. Now getting an unpaid work placement for your child with say a GP is easier if you are from a socio economic background where you will know of GP (friend or friend of a friend) than if you are a single parent living in social housing and have a very bright daughter.

Yes it's unfair but there is not a lot you can do about it.

@PuddlesPityParty

"cyclamenqueen
@PuddlesPityParty for the last time ……. Independent schools do pay VAT , shedloads of it in fact, quite a lot of it they may now be able to reclaim. What they do not do is charge VAT. These proposals by the Labour party do not make schools pay VAT they are proposing that schools charge VAT to their customers . If you don’t understand the policy then do not comment on it

For the last time… good I’m glad of it. Hope that clears up some confusion.

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Actually under current laws (from the EU) the provision of educational services is exempt from VAT.

Now we are out of the EU the UK could remove that exemption but that would mean that nursery fees and university fees would also have to pay VAT.

Also a bit odd for Starmer after saying he wishes to stay close to existing EU rules to change this one simply because of the politics of envy.

@PuddlesPityParty

"all children should have the same access to good education and the state should be funding that,.. but that’s never gonna happen with a Conservative Party in power! I do want change but I think everyone deserves the chance to be able to succeed."

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I don't disagree with you but the reality is that there will always be good schools and bad schools plus there simply isn't the money under a Conservative or Labour Gov to pay for what state schools desperately need especially after the Covid disruption.

So in your successful career imagine in a few years that you have DC about to start school, the local state school is OK'ish but there is a great private school that you can afford to send your children to.

Do you a) send them to the OK state school because it would be unfair on other children in society for your children to have an advantage or b) do the best you can for your children as a parent by sending them to the private school.

In my opinion, this is a good solution for state school lack of funding. I do not think this will make huge disaster for majority private school parents. If you can pay £23K a year, you can not pay extra £5k? They will not reduce many students of private schools especially selective secondary. Every year largely oversubscribed for some private schools. But £1.7b funds could help many state school to recruit, resolving building issues and stop the strikes. State school will have better facilities, more forms and teachers. Private school may reduce bursary and some will move to state. Why they need to offer bursary while academic students can get into grammar school. I never believe private school. It is very popular in this country but not all other places in the world. Kids will have more equal and good education in remaining 90% schools. Looking forward to labor party change the economic of UK. Stop poor becomes more poor! Smart kids will be outstanding in any places.

Trust me there are soooo many GPs, Doctors etc that send their kids to Pvte school that absolutely despair at having to work in the system they work in. They will work part time/quit.

There is no passion left to be had in the NHS. I don’t think people realise the knock on effect, these are the people who will have to remove their kids as yes they’re working for the school fees.

You don’t know what your GP does with their money but you’ll certainly feel it when there are less available. Oh and btw two GPs are leaving in her Practice to move to Oz too, so within let’s say 18 months they’re three GPs down!

I should also say depriving the country of a lot of income tax and NI!!

I don’t understand this thinking that private school gives parents more time to work. Aren’t terms much shorter ? And state schools have wraparound care for kids in my area. Is this not the case elsewhere?

They are the ones already funding state schools etc by paying huge amounts of taxes.

That will quit their high paying jobs in droves as don’t need to pay school fees anymore (and highly skilled)!

Longer days and boarding.

State schools are a bit tricky if both parents need to travel away from home for work or a working day means leaving at 6 am and getting back at 9 pm.

There was a thread on here a short time ago where quite a few people were saying that wraparound care such as breakfast clubs had stopped at a lot of schools due to the pandemic, and never restarted again due to funding and staffing issues.

To be fair, whilst there are technically GPs still in existence, I haven’t seen or heard evidence of their existence for a while - I have begun to suspect they have been replaced by recorded messages telling people to go to A& E.

@Lingar

"But £1.7b funds could help many state school to recruit, resolving building issues and stop the strikes. State school will have better facilities, more forms and teachers."

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Firstly it will be closer to £1 billion raised. Secondly given the current education budget is £105 billion this one billion will make bugger all difference.

It certainly won't be enough to recruit, resolve building issues, stop the strikes, provide state school with better facilities, more forms and teachers.

I might have some sympathy for the proposal if it genuinely would make state schools better but it simply isn't enough money and will cause a whole load of secondary impacts (see thread).

It is simply the politics of envy rather than achieving anything worthwhile.

Most parents sending their kids to preschool are now budgeting on fees doubling. I know we did this - and so cut our lifestyle accordingly. A VAT increase wouldn’t kill the budget too much.

One thing parents of State educated kids should worry about is that Private School parents are not just used to paying - in many cases they prefer it & are often connected enough to be influential too. Having them come back to State Education could forever change the way schools fund (and charge for) basic necessities. If the Vat increase results in parents moving I fully expect all before and aftercare prices in State Schools to go up. I also expect things like stationary and books to no longer be funded by academies and wouldn’t be surprised if you have 2 tiers of uniform - one budget and one premium.

Sounds like the UK really needs to change the way GPs' pensions work, if GPs are genuinely finding it so easy to jack their careers in at the drop of a hat (my father's golf club is full of 50-somethings who "are retired now, used to work as a GP").

@ Lingar even if it was £1.7 billion raised (and it will not be that much) there are 9 million pupils in the state sector in the UK, which works out at £188 per child - this is not going to bring about the utopia you seem to suggest with improvements to buildings, forms etc. Labour are not promising that.

Labour say they will use the money to fund 6,500 more teachers (not sure where they are planning to find them. If its more teacher training that will be at least 3 - 4 years before you see anyone coming through. There are about 32,000 schools in this country so that means this will fund 1 more teacher in every 5 schools. "Access to mental health counselling" is apparently going to occur in each school, but no details and a bit vague, and I imagine will be more funding for things like ELSA (but not for example a counsellor in each school).

Trying to pretend this will fund massive in education is ridiculous. £1.7 billion sounds a lot, but it's about 1% of the education budget, which is nothing when you think there will be increases in teacher's salaries to cover, costs and the country is broke.

Labour are trying to find ways to raise money without taxing the majority of people in this country (because that doesn't win votes). They've confirmed they won't reintroduce the 45 p tax rate, they won't do a wealth tax, all things they could do if they want to raise large chunks of money.

My main opinion on the private school thing:

Costs have risen hugely over the past 25 years without any VAT being involved - partly due to changes in the way teachers' pensions have been funded, partly due to some schools being extravagant when it comes to building facilities.

The VAT will cause a bit of an additional increase, but it's unlikely fees will go up that much more than they would in a standard year, as heads will economize and make savings. If schools lose charity status as well, this will remove the obligation to share stuff with state schools as well, and enable schools to be run in a more businesslike manner.

Most parents with kids in school esp secondary will probably just suck up the usual annual increases. There will be a fall off among the younger kids, but it's going to be hard to work out how much is VAT and how much of it is about the fact that fees keep going up anyway regardless of VAT plus COL, inflation, the continued housing crisis (parents increasingly feel the need to put money into housing deposits for kids instead), and the significant fall in the fertility rate since 2011.

In short, there's going to be some gradual attrition, not some big crisis, and it will be difficult to see how much of it is genuinely due to VAT and how much would have happened anyway. (Shrug)

The other thing to remember is that private schools will probably start to specialize more into different price points. Some will remain and continue to become ever more luxurious money pits, knowing that wealthy parents will shell out anyway. Some will economize heavily and have class sizes and facilities similar to state schools but better behavior and nicer parent/child intakes, and will market themselves as the place you use if your local state school is scary. Some will orient themselves more obviously to SEN in some form and aim to keep charitable status and various tax breaks.