Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

I think the majority of parliamentarians do, which is why it was so hard to pass this through several months ago..

twistyizzy · Today 13:34

@Barbadossunset and funnily enough you never get a reply to that question! I've asked it numerous times and never got a response.

There’s also never a response to ‘why is tutoring acceptable when that is also unfair since it’s unaffordable for many.’

@ellyeth

Why should private schools get tax breaks?

They don't. IF they're also charities, then there are limited tax breaks which may be available. But at present, education is VAT free in the UK, which is the same for private schools as well as state schools (state schools aren't automatically/always exempt from VAT, some are VAT registered for other reasons). If a private school isn't a charity and is a business, it will pay tax on it;s profits, just like any other business.

I don't believe private schools should have charitable status and tax breaks. Surely having all children in a similar situation (with wveryone finding the right fit etc) is the way forward morally? I'm sure private school buildings have been maintained well and could be opened as state schools if and when more demand, demands

Ah, I missed the earlier correspondence.

Can any of these private schools convert to state schools and become academies? What is the process?

There is a lovely private school 0.4 miles from my house. I would love for my youngest to go there for free if it were to become a state school. Surely this could be a possibility for some private schools and they just end up taking more children? Maybe keep a similar ethos at first? Could this work? I do realise they would have to cut a lot of extras but maybe they could just charge those separately as expensive clubs? If the clientele initially is the same, maybe there would still be demand for that.

Not charging VAT on school fees is not a “tax break”. Parents who choose the private sector are actually saving the state several thousand pounds a year by not using the state system. Why should they pay additional tax on that?

Quite a few countries actually give parents a credit towards private education if they choose not to use the state system. No one is suggesting the UK do that.

Would you describe no VAT on private healthcare, dentistry, nursery fees, university education or care home fees as a “tax break”?

Why would they do that though?

Unless you are proposing to ban all private tuition, extra curricular activities, faith schools, grammar schools or admission based on where you live, you will never have “all children in a similar situation”.

I feel like it’s another one of those things that is morally unacceptable but people will do it anyway for valid reasons.

@Barbadossunset
@PuddlesPityParty

"Oh dear, I hope your parents didn’t waste their money on private education for you. "

Puddlespityparty I get it you don’t like private schools or their charitable status but why so spiteful?

++++

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with raising tax revenues or a genuine concern on improving state schools and everything to do with the politics of envy.

Can any of these private schools convert to state schools and become academies? What is the process?

The private schools we’ve been at have been in buildings hundreds of years old. Most were set up century’s ago. One closed down near us, and one of the reasons the local council decided against converting it to a much needed state school, was the upkeep of the old building. It’s now got 350 new homes on its site, oh and no more local school places for the new families. The boundaries for the local state school have come crashing in.

Unless a private school is a relatively new building, the council won’t touch it. They don’t have the money to upkeep it. Where do you think my 18.5K versus £4,560 goes?

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with raising tax revenues or a genuine concern on improving state schools and everything to do with the politics of envy.

Yes, certainly in the case of Puddlespityparty.

My dc go to an academy state school. They weren't bright enough to get into grammar.
However ds has two friends who are on full scholarships at a private school. Both children will now be sitting the 13+. They have been warned they will be no funding for bursary and scholarship kids, if the charitable status gets pulled.
It doesn't matter though as these kids will take grammar places, so won't make any impact to our local state school.
I think grammar schools should stop being selective though, if we're going for standardised schooling, then all educational establishments need to be government funded and no selection. Currently grammars achieve high standards of education than other 'bog standard' comprehensives. In our area the grammars get better results than the non selective private schools, and pretty much the same results as the selective private schools.

@Araminta1003 academies still have issues with teacher retention and having their curriculum being dictated to by government plus class sizes which are, in my opinion, too large for effective teaching. I don't want my child in an academy, I chose private for a few reasons but 1 was to escape the clutchess of the latest government educational fad and the every shrinking state curriculum.

Survivingjust
I'm sure private school buildings have been maintained well and could be opened as state schools if and when more demand, demands.

As pp have pointed out, who is going to pay for the upkeep of these places, some of which are listed buildings? They may have been well maintained but maintenance is ongoing. I dread to think what the maintenance costs are if Stowe, for example, and I can’t imagine many councils taking that on.

Araminta1003 academies still have issues with teacher retention and having their curriculum being dictated to by government plus class sizes which are, in my opinion, too large for effective teaching.

If private schools are abolished, how are all the ubermensch private parents going to solve this?

They do.

They pay high tax.

@anunlikelyseahorse

"My dc go to an academy state school. They weren't bright enough to get into grammar. "

" I think grammar schools should stop being selective though, if we're going for standardised schooling, then all educational establishments need to be government funded and no selection"

+++

Out of interest do you think your views on grammar schools would be different if your dc were bright enough to get into a grammar school?

Also for many grammar school kids it wasn't "brightness" that got them in but a lot of private 11+ tuition and private exam practice.

@Barbadossunset they will buy up all the houses near outstanding state schools and use private tutors. They will always buy an advantage. Of course the uber uber rich will send their kids abroad but they are a minority.

This is what we will do. We are people going without other things to afford fees. We budgeted for a 7% rise annually. Last year was 15%, the year before was 8%. It is not sustainable. A 20% rise for 2 children is not doable. So wewill ho into the state sector and spend our money on a house I the catchment of the best state school near by.

“The private schools we’ve been at have been in buildings hundreds of years old. Most were set up century’s ago. One closed down near us, and one of the reasons the local council decided against converting it to a much needed state school, was the upkeep of the old building. It’s now got 350 new homes on its site, oh and no more local school places for the new families.”

Who pocketed the money for the real estate sold to developers to build 350 homes? Was it an incorporated charity? Where do these funds then end up going? Who profits? Because someone always does.

This comment was made in response to something I put suggesting that the money saved on fees is paid to the state school so I can't quote it-

'But why should they do that? They don't owe the children of less hardworking parents their money.'

Do people really think that those who can't afford private school just don't work hard enough? I'm horrified. I'm going to move away from this discussion now because I can't bare to read stuff like this.

twistyizzy · Today 16:38

@Barbadossunset they will buy up all the houses near outstanding state schools and use private tutors. They will always buy an advantage. Of course the uber uber rich will send their kids abroad but they are a minority.

Yes. Or some parents may get together and organise home schooling in a group with tutors and governesses.

cupofdecaf · Today 16:52

This comment was made in response to something I put suggesting that the money saved on fees is paid to the state school so I can't quote it.

I would be interested to hear the response from people who say “we could easily afford private school for our 6 children but we send them to state schools as we’re decent people with a moral compass”. Maybe they should contribute the fees which they can easily afford.
However I can’t see many - if any - people being that altruistic. I mean, people don’t say “I can easily afford private medicine but I’m an ethical person so I use the NHS` and donate to it what a private hospital would’ve cost.