Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

There is no logic to the imposition of VAT on school fees. Perhaps we should also impose a 20% tax charge on any house above a certain value on the basis that a lot of the population can’t afford them.

"So where is the public benefit?"

I suggest you direct your question at the organisation who decided it was a charity, i.e. The Charity Commissioners. No one else could possibly answer your question as we're not part of the decision making process, we don't know the charity's constitution nor scope of operations.

Claiming charity status isn't just some random people ticking a box when they want to claim it - there's a rigorous review process and lots of hoops to jump through to satisfy the Charity Commissioners that it's a legitimate organisation meeting the requirements of the Law to become a charity.

Trustees are required on an ongoing basis to ensure such an organisation continues to operate in accordance with it's constitution and continues to satisfy the legal definition of a Charity.

I think you're misunderstanding what "public benefit" means. It doesn't mean that it has to benefit everyone, i.e. all the public. If you wish to research it further, there's plenty of information on the Charity Commissioners, HMRC and other official websites explaining the meaning of "Public benefit".

Private schooling is an absolute stain on our country and I hope this is the beginning of the end for them. More money will need to go into the state sector to "mop up" though.

And who runs the charity commission? 😱

Many people are arguing they’re not a charity - so let it be reviewed.

If it is a charity, as you say, then let their status be reviewed legally by the charity commission. If they are a charity still then good for you, if they’re not then it’s what is right. Shouldn’t be a big deal if they do in fact meet the ✨ legal ✨ definition of a charity. If they don’t, like I argue, then they won’t have the status anymore.

Even the government can’t act just against the law (unless they’re a Tory maybe). The law would either need to be changed, the legal definition changed, or the status of private schools to be reviewed - Starmer couldn’t just snap his fingers and remove the status without it being reviewed and going through HoP. Do you know how the law works in the U.K.?

I know he said ASAP but there’s still a process to follow.

@PuddlesPityParty

"I’ll ask again, where is the public benefit?"

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The benefit is that private schools offer busaries and scholarships to those that are bright but unable to afford the fees. They also offer their facilities to local state schools- usually sports facilities.

Now you could argue that this only benefits a minority of poorer pupils and only benefits state schools local to private schools and therefore not the public good. But it is the nature of all charities to focus on a particular need in society for example the Sail Training Association (which most would recognise as a charity) only helps those from disadvantaged backgrounds or who are disabled to learn to sail. Is this a public good?

You can’t say what the public benefit is - so as above, let their status be reviewed.

Oh I do understand don’t you worry.

From HMRC “how the charity's purpose benefits the public or a sufficient section of the public”

is 7% really a sufficient section? No. 👎

@PuddlesPityParty

Many people are arguing they’re not a charity - so let it be reviewed.

Yes, but like you, they're not using the correct legal definition of what a charity is!

As for who runs the charity commission - a quick google search will give you the names of the current Board.

Do you mean parents who have kids at private school should pay that money towards state schools to improve them for everyone?

Private school parents already pay towards the state sector that they don’t use.

Yes, 7% can easily meet the LEGAL requirement. There are plenty of "niche" charities that benefit a much smaller section of the public. It doesn't have to be of benefit to the majority, nor even a significant minority. Try researching case law as to what constitutes "sufficient section"! You really need to stop thinking about your own views and biases when it comes to the law - the only things that matter are the Acts of Parliament themselves and subsequent Case Law. If you don't like the law, which obviously you don't, then lobby your MP to get the law changed and if enough people do that, then we could have a proper Parliamentary debate and maybe get the law changed.

HAHAHAHA - we’ve already discussed the definition honey pie you can stop it with that - like I say let it be reviewed!

Charity commission is ran by the government. It has a board, just like Food Standards does, but they don’t run it don’t be so naive. They are non ministerial hence why they have a board.

@Another76543

"Perhaps we should also impose a 20% tax charge on any house above a certain value on the basis that a lot of the population can’t afford them."

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Oooo - while you are at it please could we have a surcharge on Lurpak as I can't afford it and now buy the Tesco own brand because it's half the price and that's not fair.

What's your view on things like:

• music lessons
• sports coaching
• dance classes
• academic tutoring
• holidays abroad to practice French/Spanish/German

Or places becoming 'ghettos'? There are sought after state comprehensives in London with tiny catchments and every house over a million to buy.

Would you have a problem if top name UK private schools just move to, for example, France... hire a nice chateau and carry on as Eton-sur-Loire? Great for the French economy, not so great for the caretakers, gardeners, cooks, teachers etc in the small towns where many of the bigger name private schools are.

Cba with this now but like I said - let it be reviewed. If they remain as a charity great for those who want it to remain as one. If they don’t, then they should be paying VAT like the rest of businesses 🫶✨

No reason to be soooo scared of it if you know for a fact they are a charity is there x x

The law would either need to be changed, the legal definition changed, or the status of private schools to be reviewed - Starmer couldn’t just snap his fingers and remove the status without it being reviewed and going through HoP. Do you know how the law works in the U.K.?

But I think he could change the rules on an exempt supply under the VAT Act without going through Parliament. I am happy to be corrected but I think that simply requires a statutory instrument. The discussion of charity status is irrelevant to the proposal on VAT that they are planning to implement once in office.

@PuddlesPityParty, as @user1497207191 says, "public benefit" does not mean "for the benefit of everyone" - The Cat's Protection League is a charity but it has no benefit for people with dementia. Also not every private school is a registered charity.

You can look up any charity on the Charity Commission website to see what any registered school's charitable objects and aims are. If you are not satisfied with the stated aims you can raise an objection with the CC.

I think you are confused about the relationship between charitable status and VAT liability. The two issues are constantly conflated by politicians and in the press. Education is currently an exempt supply for VAT regardless of whether the school in question is a charity or not.

The Charity Commission are independent and they review charities to ensure they meet the legal definitions.

I’m still slightly puzzled with your preoccupation with charitable status though - charitable status does not impact the VAT position which is what this thread is about.

@PuddlesPityParty

"If they don’t, then they should be paying VAT like the rest of businesses 🫶✨"

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Except they won't because providing educational services is exempt from VAT - this is Eu legislation.

You could change this rule now we are out of the EU but it would mean that nurseries would also have to pay VAT which wouldn't be unpopular with many working parents.

I have tried to explain this on several threads, but I think that some people wilfully choose to ignore the facts. I’m not sure the Labour Party actually understand that the charitable status and VAT position are not linked.

And university fees…..

I wonder how people who pay private for swimming lessons, music lessons, grm lessons, dance lessons, sports coaching, etc., will feel when their charges increase by 20%. After all, if the VAT exemption from private education is removed, it will apply to ALL forms of private education, not just the private schools that some people hate!

If labour really cared about education they would have private schools working more close with state schools as part of their manifesto. But they don’t, VAT on school fees (which is a completely different issue to charitable status) is an easy vote winner designed to appeal to the same type of people who believed that Brexit would reduce immigration. It won’t improve state education, it may actually put further pressure on state schools and push poorer children out of the best state schools and it will make it harder for families who are not super rich to afford the fees; i.e. the families who are already funding this country by paying huge amounts of income tax. But who cares if a few more doctors move to Australia to take benefit of a country that subsidises school fees.

Some of their spokespersons certainly don't understand as they keep interchanging VAT and charities as if they're the same thing! (A bit like some posters on here actually!).

They’ll complain…but if they want it to be a level playing field….

Judging by the number of primaries in my area that have been forced to close due to lack of funding, this can only serve communities well if they can soon be re-opened. Add to that the number of teachers who have had to leave London, where I live, because they can’t afford the rent, this could pave the way to finally subsidising teachers living costs. Does this not mean our kids have a chance to have more schools with teachers in them? That includes kids who would otherwise have gone private. Or I’m probably being idealistic…