Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

Yes, I agree. Their view of learning support can often be a bit of maths help.

But there are a few private schools that specialise in ASD or Dyslexia etc.

I said definition not legal definition, they often are two different things. “Random dictionary” as well 🤣 you are a funny one.

you missed out a lot of what you’re quoting to twist your little narrative there too…
I can’t see how a private school is for the public benefit. Just the few.

Oh dear, I hope your parents didn’t waste their money on private education for you.

DD also has SEN, and we supply all the tech and any extra help she needs so that school don't need to. School have never asked for anything, not sure how one would go about 'improving it' even if I was so minded.

Thank you for answering Twistedizzy’s and my question.
However that is just one answer - what else do the rich state school parents do to improve the schools? And can you give some examples of what the private school parents will be able to do that you can’t?
I think if these millionaire problem solvers really wanted to improve state school then they’d be doing just that.
I don’t think abolishing their dcs’ private schools is going to bring about a sudden change of heart.

One important legal point to note though is that VAT on Education is illegal under EU law and I thought Labour want to continue to keep a lot of EU laws in tact, so how is that going to work? Does that mean we can never get back into some form of very close relationship with the EU?

Well spotted. You should be a journalist with that

You're the one who quoted an irrelevant (and wrong) definition of charity!

Oh yes please tell me how it’s wrong? Can’t wait 😇

It’s the legal definition that counts

But to me it doesn’t meet it still - it’s not for the public benefit (as per the link so helpfully provided by user) when only small sections of the elite / top earners can actually afford it. Don’t start saying “but some people scrape by to afford it” - the very fact that they can afford it shows they’re not low earners. And as for scholarships? Still selective for those who will boost their GCSE scores and make them look like a better school.

So where is the public benefit?

I'm a state school parent, at a school which is financially selective in practice - houses in the surrounding mile sell for around £1.5m a go or near £4k/month to rent, so most families are high-income and have chosen the area for the school.

Instinctively I think I agree with others about what would happen if this came in tomorrow -

"Big name" private schools would be fine.
The less selective / well known schools would see falling enrolment.
There would be a higher tolerance for "the comp down the road" combined with more strategic thinking about gaming catchment areas, and money spent on tutors and enrichment instead.

I wouldn't underestimate the impact of the CoL on higher-income households - they aren't going hungry, but you can see attempts to reduce spending and tighten belts. I don't think most families are paying private school fees easily.

Local authorities meet school fees to the tune of millions of pounds each year for disabled children, because there’s no suitable state alternative.

We currently have 1,183,384 children with SEN but no EHCP.

What do you think some of the parents of these 1,183,384 children many of which will be in private school will do the moment school fees increase to an unsustainable level?

Where do people think the money that funds these legal challenges that parents have to undergo, in order to force the LA to provide a suitable provision will come from?

Plenty of us self fund private school willingly in the knowledge that there just isn’t an alternative state provision. Increase school fees and now you have thousands of parents with a vested interest to ensure the local authorities contribute towards their children school fees.

There are far better ways to level the playing field for all children, which doesn’t come at the cost of the educational provision for disabled children.

Your definition is wrong because it’s not the one which applies to the private schools which are charities. The definition which applies legally is very different. The whole topic of this thread is about private schools so it makes sense to look at the charitable definition which applies to private schools.

Yes, as I understand it, if we were still members of the EU, we would not be able to charge VAT on school fees. I wonder how many people complain about the effects of Brexit, voted remain, are very vocal about it, but are more than happy to cherry pick the consequences which suit them.

The definition of charity itself was not wrong. Please also see my prior posts about how I believe it doesn’t meet the legal definition also 🫶 😘

Well they do meet the legal definition otherwise they wouldn’t be charities

@Araminta1003 I do wonder if that's Labours escape hatch to say they can't enact the VAT on fees because it would hinder any effort to rejoin as it's in flagrant disregard of EU law.

I've told you. The only definition that matters is the one used in the relevant Acts of Parliament. That is what determines whether an organisation/institution qualifies as being a charity for legal/tax purposes!

It’s largely irrelevant whether people “think” it meets the legal definition. The Charity Commission obviously do, and that is what matters from a legal point of view.

Right back to my first response to you. If it doesn't meet the definition, it won't legally be a charity. The Charity Commissioners decide whether an institution/organisation qualifies as a charity by comparing it's constitution and operations against the relevant Acts of Parliament.

If an organisation doesn't meet the definition as per Acts of Parliament, it won't legally be a charity, can't call itself a charity, and can't benefit from charitable status.

A random dictionary definition is completely irrelevant.

Why do you think a lot of people are saying they’re not charities then? Do you really think the government doesn’t bend and twist truths?

I’ll ask again, where is the public benefit?

I don't think there will be, but the middle income parents who could barely afford it will be pushed out so it will become even more elitist.

My issue is that the war on private school needs to be accompanied by focus on improving state schools, not just pushing kids into already underfunded & overstretched schools.

It's hilarious because it's the kids of those rubbing their hands with glee who will suffer most NOT the majority or wealthiest at private schools.

Private schools also have no incentive now to let state schools use their facilities for free extra...

@perkynuts

"but most private school families are extremely wealthy who can afford holidays, flash cars, and several houses with no trouble whatsoever."

+++

Under the politics of envy and "fairness " maybe the state should decide what value and what destination holidays for everyone should be or a standard level of flash'ness for all cars (perhaps a Trabant for all?) or legally restrict property ownership to one property including buy to lets etc.

For a start, sharing facilities, teachers, providing bursaries etc. I can only comment from my own experience, but the private schools I have experience of most certainly do share facilities etc which has a public benefit. The Charity Commission are obviously satisfied that schools meet the test too.