STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS

[theantignome]

hi everyone, i wanted to start a new thread with a NEW topic heading here, as the active one at the moment with over 700 posts looks like it is all about the Cambridge school. This may confuse newcomers.

Let's continue the debate here !
All newcomers welcome !

I will shortly link our two previous threads on MN for any one new to have a look at.

Davy, could you also give a link to your new yahoo list here please ? Thanks.

i am disgusted that you people can even talk about McArthyism in the same breath as anti-waldorf/steiner-ism, have you no shame ?

i'll give you a hint to the question as you don't understand plain English : [the answer is NO]

antignome... I should've put a together with the openness. I don't think they give outsiders free access to the teachers' room, though that's probably the most 'gnomic' location of the school!!

Don't know about the Santa situation. I don't think I ever saw a red american santa in my waldorf schools, and the gnomes were present all year round. The gnomes are fairly similar to the old "hustomtar" that were thought to live around farms and cottages in the past.

This green santa that the news article mentions seems to be the usual S:t nicholas. We don't have that in Sweden, and I don't think we had it in the waldorf school either.

It was supposed to say: "libel by Sune"...

barking - her husband or partner is responsible for "TV series Tutti Frutti"

so ok that is why her kids have to go to a steiner school where no tv is allowed - it is to cover up for the shame of producing tuttu frutti !!!

Oh, you know he's desperate when he digs out Stereophile.

zzooey - like i said a few weeks back and i am sure you agree if those poor gnomes and fairies and st nicolas had any kind of FREE SAY in the matter, they would all probably run away as quickly as possible from all the
steiner-istas !! i think they probably just want to be left alone and not in any way associated with steiner or his mates.

"The PLANS Litigation. After seven years to prepare their case, the trial ended in 30 minutes, September 2005."

The case is on going. You are well aware of that Sune. This is disinformation.
PLAN's press release is here:
www.waldorfcritics.org/active/pressreleases/PR20071214.html
December 07. A bit on from September 05.BTW, this is indeed the same case.
Honestly Sune, nobody minds you presenting your own point of view, but honestly, you need to learn to trust people. Give them information, not propaganda. They will probably think more of your input for that, even though they disagree with you.

"Teaching Witchcraft?" That's paper talk. nothing in that article attributes any such claim to PLANS. It then goes on to say:

"Myths, fables and the study of ancient civilizations such as the Aztecs are part of the curriculum, which is why some parents may have reached erroneous conclusions, one district official said.The case is ongoing- today."

"some parents", not PLANS

How about you refer to the complaints carried in that same article from parents disappointed by the academic failures.
Were these parents "misunderstanding" too, just like those in Edinburgh?
Anyone beginning to see a pattern emerging here?
You oferred the link Sune. I have no problem with inviting anyone to go to the article, then draw their own conclusions on where the cheapish sensationalism lies, and similarly with the genuine concerns.

dwb.sacbee.com/content/links/story/12266380p-13130448c.html

"Top Ten+ myths about Waldorf education cultivated by "PLANS Inc."

I haven't visited this, nor am I inclined to on the basis of my comments on information v propaganda above.
Davy

The Stereophile article is about some anti-consumer fraud thing Dan was involved with about 20 years ago. (Dan's a sound engineer.) It was about honesty in advertising, and combatting antiscientific woo woo fraudulently used to sell questionable technology, obviously longrunning interests of Dan Dugan's. Sune, in his confusion, sometimes pulls this out to suggest that Dan is just a bad guy. (Obviously the people selling the junk weren't happy with Dan.) My goodness, before getting involved in Waldorf, this is a person who actually once protested . . . something else! What an evil person!

It is so old and so totally irrelevant that I am always happy to see it appear, because it means Sune is feeling quite desperate that maybe all the crap he's throwing out there is not impressing anyone, actually most likely no one's even listening. He never knows when to stop. Sune, I try so hard to help you. "PLANS alleges witchcraft" isn't true, but the problem goes well beyond this in your inability to marshal relevant and credible arguments. (It was parents at a particular school who alleged witchcraft; fundamentalist Christians who were very unhappy to learn that a New Age religion was being taught at the school. Sune bases the claim that "PLANS alleges witchcraft" on the apparent failure of anyone at PLANS to call the newspaper that printed this story and assure the reporter that they themselves did not believe in witches).

Sune, if no one is buying this, do you really think mumsnet readers want to read about Dan's work against consumer fraud in the audio industry in the 1980's?

It doesn't help Sune's case, of course, when he posts stuff that is not true. The PLANS lawsuit is far from over; the case is under appeal and will be heard again. "Trial was over in 30 minutes" is as boldly shameless a misrepresentation of the facts as possible.

"It is so old and so totally irrelevant"

Perhaps not. Fraudulent marketing is a thing many technology producers have in common with waldorf, except waldorf is often worse. Junk in fancy packaging.

I think it's only a good thing that people see that someone has the insights and courage to oppose those who try to rip people off. Maybe Sune doesn't like the concept of enlightened consumers.

I read in the paper that a Steiner school was getting academy status which sounded nice extra choice in the state system for parents.

"I think it is time some of us Brits. also stuck our necks out. in fact i am wondering why we don't have a sort of PLANS here to also launch a legal challenge to these lunatics."

Tricky. We don't have an instrument comparable to the Constitution of The United States, and our system does in fact permit public funding of religious schools.
I haven't troubled to check for quite a while, but when I last did- maybe a couple of years ago, most Steiner Schools and Camphills made reference in their bumf to the 'Christian based' ethos of their places.
They might have dropped that now. American and European Anthroposophy were cutting the legs from each other in that 'Christian=based' was (generally) a good key to securing public funding in Europe, but the same basis is vehemently denied in USA since that same stance precludes funding from the public purse.

What we can do though is continue to highlight just how deceptive Anthroposophy is, here and other blogs, the UK websites, both mine www.easeonline.org and CHASEUK www.chaseuk.info/ and www.steinerkritikk.no/In20English.htm takes you to the English language Norwegian critics site. Eventually, someone will listen, and even if doing this stuff does no more than further inform people prior to them deciding whether or not to commit, that is indeed worthwhile, galling though it is to know that in some regards we are doing Anthroposophy's work on for them- meaning there will always be people for whom it is just what they are looking for.
Davy

Davy, the situation in Sweden is practically the same as you describe - public funding for religious schools is available. Waldorf schools don't classify themselves as religious though, but they make that 'christian based' ethos one of their cornerstones. Unlike other religious schools, they of course don't say they pray, they say verses... christian kinderkarten's have recently been denied public funding on the grounds that they may not pray before eating. They may be christian, but not 'enforce' the practice of christianity... or something like that. However, waldorf kindergarten praying is never questioned - because they don't call themselves religious and they don't call the prayer a prayer. The same will happen in the school system, because there's a new proposal for a law that will make any preaching during lessons unlawful (must be done outside formal lesson time). This won't affect waldorf, because they don't preach, they just emerge themselves and the kids in occult stuff all the time...

Anyway, PLANS purpose isn't just the constitutional issues that are singularily applicable in the US, it's also to raise awareness of anthroposophy and waldorf. People should be informed of where they send there children, whoever pays for the education (or lack of it...).

So the european angle is perhaps not so much the legal, but the political. For example in making the point that waldorf is founded on a system of religious belief, and shouldn't be exempt from any laws and regulations that apply to religious schools.

And then there's not only the school system, anthros have schools and homes for the disabled (as you write about on your web site Davy). That's (at least in Sweden) the public funding of anthroposophical beliefs and practices and allowing those to be used (and abused) on people who can sometimes not agree or disagree to it.

"I think it is time some of us Brits. also stuck our necks out. in fact i am wondering why we don't have a sort of PLANS here to also launch a legal challenge to these lunatics."

A couple of things more FWIW.
Personally, I would defend the right of "these lunatics" to be as loony as they see fit- so long as they don't hurt anyone else, and so long as we taxpayers don't have to pay for it. I'd hesitate to use "lunatics" myself, but maybe that's just me.
Where I would suggest a challenge might be made though is on the grounds of alienation.
I think I have said before that it seems to me to be quite necessary to be aware of all one is leaving behind prior to looking at alternatives. In using 'alienation' my own experience was that in order to comply with Anthroposophy, I first had to hold as priviledged all things German.
My best stab at why this might be is here: www.easeonline.org/Soul_Consciousness.htm but for those who can't be bothered, I'll give this for your consideration: "The German Spirit....is prepared for a truth that reveals itself to be true out of itself, not requiring external verification. The German Spirit is prepared for this and evidence may be found everywhere. The thoughts of those who were truly working within the essence of the German spirit have always taken the form of considering truth to be an inner gift of the human soul."
Rudolf Steiner.The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations. (1914-1915) Trans. Anna R. Meuss. NewYork: Anthroposophic Press; 1987*

Compare this with the governments latest musings on qualification for citizenship. Then ask how it might, on those lines, qualify for public funding.
I don't know how this might (or might not) resonate with your proposal antignome, but perhaps it is a starting point of some sort?
Davy

ease said: "Tricky. We don't have an instrument comparable to the Constitution of The United States, and our system does in fact permit public funding of religious schools."

yes, i am aware that we have no written constitution in the UK (unlike the USA) and that public funding for religious schools is not banned.

of course, the problem is that these people don't even tell you WHAT sort of religious teaching is involved, and if they do, it is wrapped around Christian things. i knew there was a Christian element to their work, and even though we have a secular atheist background, we were ok with our child having some religious stuff taught to him, we did not think he would get brainwashed into it as we always offer a counter-balance to religion at home.

what i didn't know and could NEVER have guessed from any of the literature given to me or their website, is that they believe in spirits, gnomes, fairies, they do a dance to talk to the spirit world and all the other woo woo woooooooooooooooo crap they teach young, impressionable children.

yes, i see your point about not calling others lunatics. sorry, it is my personal view, i regard any form of FUNDAMENTALISM as lunacy, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, or Steiner-ist Anthro-ism. I don't accept fundamentalism in religious practice and these people ARE just that, fundamentalists. i don't freely chose to send my son to be taught by a Catholic or Muslim fundamentalist, so why would i voluntarily send him to a Steiner teacher who is a fundamentalist ?

that is my objection and i am wondering whether one would have a legal case in saying quite justifiably that i and other parents here in the UK have been shamefully deceived.

i don't know, i don't know enough about litigation, i think i will check it with a litigation lawyer, i will report back.

"I don't know how this might (or might not) resonate with your proposal antignome, but perhaps it is a starting point of some sort?"

i think that is an excellent point, but it may be difficult to prove that they were teaching the children anything about Germany or being German, esp. at kindergarten level.
i have serious problems with this of course, as it is based on racial discrimination, but is is just too difficult to prove.

for litigation to succeed, one needs lots of evidence. that is the real problem, i have no real PROOF of what they were teaching my son, all i can say though and many others have said the same, is that we feel deceived due to the lack of transparency.

i have checked one thing on the ofsted website and that is that schools have to have good lines of communication with parents and that transparency is crucial. one may be able to get them on this issue.

i will have to investigate further.

They aren't lunatics, but they believ things that are loony and it disqualifies them from teaching as long as their teaching is based on those beliefs.

And I must add that there were quite a few waldorf teachers who were lunatics in the literal meaning of the word too. Lunacy seems to coverge with anthroposophy, perhaps the two feed off each other. Statistically speaking I think the likelihood of finding really loony people in waldorf is higher than in the ordinary school system. I think the anthroposophical beliefs tend to attract certain kinds of people, who don't see teaching as a profession or the main purpose, but rather as a way of furthering their own and the movement's spiritual goals. And since those goals are loony...

"i think that is an excellent point, but it may be difficult to prove that they were teaching the children anything about Germany or being German, esp. at kindergarten level."

Do you think there may be a first hint here? Kindergarten, not Nursery.
Can a choice be made to study, say, Spanish instead of German, not just as well as German. Can a pupil drop German at a Steiner Schools?
I don't know, but I'd tend to doubt it, given:
"Now it will certainly seem strange and fantastic when mankind nowadays is told that in Central Europe the close association of the "I" with the Christ principle had put a stamp on the entire development of the area, to the effect that even the linguistic spirit of a people took up this association and equated "I" (Ich) and "CH" (Christ): I-CH conjoined became "Ich." In pronouncing "Ich "in Central Europe one utters the name of Jesus Christ. That is how close the "I" wants to be to the Christ, longing for the most intimate closeness with Him. This living together, as one, with the spiritual world, which we in Central Europe must strive to attain in all intellectual fields, is not known in the West or in the East."
"Christ In Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman ", lecture, May 18, 1915.

I'm happy to acknowledge that having been both living and working in an Anthro setting, then maybe such things carried a greater weight than for some others.
It took me some time to be able to separate Anthro from German. For some years I couldn't listen to Wagner. Then I read in Geoffrey Ahern's Ph.D thesis that Steiner didn't like Wagner. That was enough for me:
Wagner was a German who extolled German legend. Fair enough.
Steiner was an ethnic German who seems to hold 'German' above all others- with the possible exception of the Anglo-Saxon which I guess might appeal to a certain mind set, but most folk are quite happy to hold their own heritage as simply different but equal in comparison with others.
My thoughts anyway.
Davy

yes, kindergarten ! why not nursery ! or pre-school, or whatever !

we have chinese, jewish, spanish, etc nurseries where we live and none of them use a word from their own language to decribe their schools.

although funnily enough the french do this steiner thing too, they call their international schools "lycee",

so i am wondering whether it is because germans and french generally wish to portray their languages as universal and insist on using their own words even when abroad ?

zzooey, you are so funny, yes one CAN believe in lunatic things and yet never become a lunatic ....however the thought process and personality usually go hand in hand, well said i totally agree with you there !

yes totally agree, steinerism like all other political and religious "-isms"
attract a certain sort of person.

spelling crazy again...

believ +e
coverge = converge

Anthroposophy and craziness go hand in hand, yes. However, you've got to admire them. They managed to turn their constitutional craziness into a profession (waldorf teacher) and make people pay the waldorfians for subjecting their kids to the craziness

"Nursery."

Thank you Davy. I have been thinking that the official English word for kindergarten is kindergarten. But it's nursery. I had completely forgot about that.

Waldorf kindergarten in Sweden was not called kindergarten, though. It was called 'lekskola' (play school) which is the usual word for that concept. Or 'förskola' (pre-school).

But apart from that, it was quite obvious what was the most important language in waldorf. We had lots of teachers who came from germany too. Despite this, and having officially studied german for 6 years, it was quite amazing to notice that when I transfered to another school after 6th grade, and everyone there was beginners of german, they had caught up with me in some weeks time.

In the past I think the word 'barnhage' was used for all nurseries, and that's a literal translation of kindergarten. Nowadays that word isn't used by anyone, not even the waldorfians, as far as I know.

My brother went to a german school's pre-school (and school too). It was called kindergarten. Everything was very german.

here the steiner-istas teach german and spanish. i wondered why they didn't teach french, which for us in the UK is our second language (not german, german is taught in many schools, but french is still taught more often) until northern kindly posted a passage from dear old rudolf about how french "corrupts the soul" he obvioulsy didn't think much of the french, of course being a nationalist zealot, he wouldn't !

W W I and the Versaille Treaty and all that, too painful for him obviously.

my husand and father in law speak fluent french and have both spent quite a lot of time in france and switzerland, i keep telling them they have "corrupt souls" because an austrian said so about 100 years ago, and they just laugh !!!!

your arguments are weakening with each and every high pitched and squeally post you type. I think you should do yourselves, and your cause that you fight for, a favour and use msn to witter on to each other. you have probably either bored people to death or made anyone who was potentially interested in what you had to say -think that you are all bitter and strange with a very warped agenda. 'cos you sound like a bunch of nutters.
a reasonable debate will not be had on this thread.

...i think it must be all that good food and wine, it truely corrupts the soul !