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STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS

1000 replies

theantignome · 29/02/2008 09:25

hi everyone, i wanted to start a new thread with a NEW topic heading here, as the active one at the moment with over 700 posts looks like it is all about the Cambridge school. This may confuse newcomers.

Let's continue the debate here !
All newcomers welcome !

I will shortly link our two previous threads on MN for any one new to have a look at.

Davy, could you also give a link to your new yahoo list here please ? Thanks.

OP posts:
zzooey · 31/03/2008 13:18

Javier says he was a student at the same waldorf school I went to. He was very happy with it (and I told him I don't actually doubt that many students are). He blamed my anti-waldorf sentiments on my "personal trauma" which he hoped I would get over, however I would heal better if I didn't complain about waldorf officially on the internet. He wet on about medication and this and that. Also complaining a lot about my negativity, that I don't present the "objective" truth from both sides, I'm not reliable, people who read my blog will have no confidence in what I write because I present my side of the story and not the other etc (all because of my "trauma" naturally - there couldn't be any real problems with waldorf, of course). And he goes on and on about how I don't come up with the answers he has demanded, backing up my impression he's pro-waldorf... He says, again and again, now that he has "set the rules" it's such a blast to see me back off and be left without an answer... which really isn't the case, since from the very beginning I said I'm not going to... He's making wild assumptions about what everyone might think of me and my "reliability" and so on. Just like Sune, he's incredibly concerned about what people might think of me. Why, one might ask.

Well, that's it, I think. Add a lot of "I'm in charge" - I set the rules now" - "I'm superior" - kind of language.

northernrefugee39 · 31/03/2008 14:07

Oh thanks zooey-

The usual programmed Steiner Waldorf robot stuff then.....
I'll make some more comments then... about how reliable your accounts are, how witty you are , how Steiner doesn't seem to involve wit or amusement because they're all so bland and spirtiual.

zzooey · 31/03/2008 15:25

The AnthRobot - patented by the anthroposophical movement; intended use: spreading the word by monotonous parroting ; produced at the Waldorf Indoctrination Industries all over the world.

northernrefugee39 · 31/03/2008 18:33

anthrobot himself

scroll down for the alien abduction lamp
I was looking for robots when I found this ..

northernrefugee39 · 31/03/2008 18:35

I'm on three parent discussion boards at the moment; some one has mentioned these discussions here on mumsnet, and on another , a woman has just come on to say how the steiner school near her has had droves of peple removing their kids for the same reasons as us- anthroposophical stuff being hidden, and one teacher saying he was only teaching and at Steiner school to enrich and grow in his own spiritual and personal growth!

northernrefugee39 · 31/03/2008 20:32

One of the discussion boards I'm on has really taken off- one woman has written an amazing long account of the terrible things that happened at two Steiner schools.
Obviously I won't link to it because of Sune, but it's very interesting.

Someone else has commented on how glad they are the discussion is going on because it's long over due- people have no idea of what the chools are really about, how rigid and uncreative they are.

People are discussing this all over the place now, it's very healthy.

DianaW · 31/03/2008 21:45

Northern, you could send it to interested parties privately or ask her if it's all right to reprint it over here without a link.

zzooey · 31/03/2008 22:15

Ooh! There he is, AnthRobot! I wonder who of these two is Sune and who is Javier?!

Janni · 01/04/2008 09:14

Northern - LOL at anthrobot. Did you make him?
If so, how very therapeutic!

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 10:10

Diana- I've emailed you and posted the link somewhere for you, Zooey, Davy and Power etc....
I've also asked the poster if I can copy her comments,Janni- if you're interested, or I could give you my email?

I wouldn't mind sune , as he usually makes the case against anthros worse, but what he tends to do is bore people so much that they disappear, and it would be a shame to do that with a new group of people. Sorry sune, not to invite you.

Janni no- I did not make the robot.. I am horrified that such a thought could ever pass through your mind that i would spend time doing such a Steiner activity.
( Well- we do make quite alot of stuff actually- daughter no 3 is well into making 3d stuff)

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 10:24

The poster says I'm welcome to copy her posts

"Livng in blank (near blank Steiner school) I heard SO much of what you are saying leweekend. We home educate and over there in home ed. circles are MANY parents who had to take their kids out of the school describing much what you have said. I am glad to hear you speak about this. So often the physical beauty of the schools and the environmental attention to details there bowl parents over and is mistaken for true 'care'. Visiting one time for a festival I overheard one (new) teacher talking to another about how his being a teacher was all about his own personal and spiritual development - not about the kids at all!!!!! I have met so many people with negative social experiences that happened at steiner schools - from bulling (steming from boredom they reckon). My own sons loved the outdoor play but found the circle time tedious and monotomous and rather than 'reverent' little angelic faces looking up at me from polished beeswax floors when I looked at the kids there I saw alternatively only frustration and 'saddness' at being 'held back' both physically and mentally. actually their look was more vacant than sad, sort of worn down. Gah! A true advertisement for home education - unschooling and freedom to me!!"

"The folk I know who have removed their children from the Steiner system seemed to have the most trouble when moving their children from the kindergarten to the main school. Problems they had were then bashed by the teachers, and seen as totally the 'problem' of the child (rather than the class teacher, the environment, the methods used or the school it's self) they viewed their teaching and practices to be totally sound in every way shape and form and were very unwilling to discuss in an open minded way any changes. I lived previously near blank and when visiting once at a festival spoke to one boy just happenstance, in a queue, who went to school there and he was really down, told me about being bullied (I was shocked at his willingness to mention such a thing as I know those being bullied keep it hidden from shame), later I heard another similar story about being bullied and the whole issue being ignored by the school totally (again it was the fault of the individual child) - this girl was 20 and worked in the cafe after having returned from living in London. She said she was bullied her entire life (brought up in the community) at the school and moved away as soon as she could (didn't ask why she was back). She must have sensed my unease and said oh don't worry nothing like that happens there now! Yeah. Right.

But it was not just the bullying, the teaching was stagnant. The same things over and over, the same methods from every child, regardless. Sure everything is so pretty and subtle and so much emphasis on handwork and creativity, but I always just had a sense of unease there. Lovely beeswax crayons and nature tables or not. Too rigid? Too focused on the method and theory at the expense of the individual child. I feel it is only ever one gets a true sense of something by looking at how it effects on an individual level. I saw boys being snide and fighting being told off by adults (oh of course, in that saying no but in a nice thoughtful, long drawn out way - yawn) then hiding around the back to play football because they knew they were not 'allowed'. I have had three friends who were training to be teachers and attended Emerson. One was ended up preaching about Steiner like he was some sort of Jesus figure, and really that was the vibe I had from all of them, constantly harping 'Steiner said...' . So what, I once asked!!! He was one guy, this one weirdo who didn't even have children! No reply Another friend actually studied art and wanted a free and not curriculum led way of teaching, so she thought she'd try the Steiner system. OMG, she was appalled. Then she ended up by saying the whole art curriculum was even more rigid and structured than anything she had ever see. No self expression, only using yellow for like, a year. Then progressing to blue. Finally a dab of red.... No black pencils, everything smudged. Sure, to us adults it all looks so beautiful - but look closer - look at that wall of drawings! They are all exactly the same! They are all told to draw exactly the same things in exactly the same way - and that basically seems to be the essence of what Steiner education is at from my pov. One American friend who came over here fro the training at Forest Row (but lived in Wales) was so smilely, so happy, so have a nice day. Her dd never ever smiled. I kid you not. Oh, ok she did, this one afternoon I looked after her and took her to the beach with my kids. Her mum started this from home Steiner based morning kindergarten, which sounded oh so sweet - baking bread, preparing the veg for lunch, playing with unformed wood 'toys', time in the garden..... but one boy was using the wood circles to roll and measure and she took him aside several times to explain that this was 'imaginative' play time, that these could be pretend food or what ever but were not for rolling and measuring distance. She had to take him aside about five times after he continued and in the end made him sit on the stairs ('time out') al the while smiling like a crazy person and being like syrup. Now why was what he was doing not imaginative??? Scary this training of hers I tell ya. Certainly not 'practicing' on my kids. She is by the way, a proper kindergarten teacher now. The other teacher training 'friend' I no longer see. Her son is, well shall we say, boisterous. He likes to be ACTIVE. At all times if possible. He is not interested in looking at Gerda Muller picture books of spring lambs, or playing with his Camphill tractor. he wants to shape his sticks in to rifles and run around screaming at everyone and talk endlessly about jails and prison, or dungeons or fighting. he is a real BOY. And quite endearing. But this mother of his squashes him at every turn. Always in the sugar coated Steiner kindergarten voice, always sweetly, but always making him sit down, be quiet, listen to the birds, eat slowly, lions don't kill... no no no, they only chase, in a fun way, I heard her say once. He was so pent up constantly, so frustrated, he lashed out at the other kids, always. He bludgeoned them with boulders and smashed them with sticks and poked them in the eye. Just for fun. Just because. Because he had so much of his self, who he was and wanted to be, squished down and away in favour of this smooth, bland, smudged edged world where one must pretend the piece of cloth is a baby dioll and play so nice and quietly in the corner with it. He just could not do it, bless him. I saw that a lot with the boys.

Ok, so far too much personal stuff here, but I feel it is needed in order to get the individual view, which collectively makes up the whole"

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 10:26

Here's some from this am
from the same poster

"
Yeah, I think the reason why they thought their paths, their teaching methods were so 'right' was because they did see themselves as spiritual guides or some such thing. So the behaviours and preferences of the child mean nothing in the scheme of their 'bettering' or 'enlightening' of this child and it's peers. They know what they are doing and would like it to be none of our business - indeed believe it is non of our business. In a way our entrusting of our children in their care reinforces that for them. Like it is their (the child's) karmic path to be taught by these masters of enlightenment (which they see themselves - I swear they are so far up their own asses there is really no point in talking to them, so sure of themselves and teachings). Perhaps even a child needs to be bullied in order to learn their life's lesson this time around. That was the impression they give, when pushed. But who pushes them? Who bothers to delve when it all looks so attractive? When it's always so easy to give over to the 'experts'. They do after all have 'qualifications' to be doing what they are doing....

I get irritated when reading the entire Hawthorn Press series of the Steiner books since there is no mention of Anthroposophy. None. Ok, little hints that add this cool spiritual element to the child's education which alternative style parents really go for because what State primary teacher is going to ever mention the spirtual side to their teachings? And now we are all about creating and educating the whole child..... it's kind of perverse that the 'alternative' parents wanting a 'better' sort of education for their child end up not only getting a (very pretty) but strange and rigid education - but end up being the ones less likely to question, precisely because it's likely more 'alternative' than they are!!!

I don't personally know anyone here who sends their kids to Steiner schools, there are likely to be some, no offense intended to you for choosing this form of education. I am sure there are lots of nice stories out there too to counter balance. Well, maybe

If my kids ever did want to go to school, I'd feel stuck. Because I view our family as an autonomous collective and therefore I'd need to totally respect their opinions and needs on this and of course - look for a school for them. But what sort of school? I ruled out Steiner pretty much pre-school from my whittling away at visitings and having friends and so on in this area and dabbling in it. State ed. I'd stumble on too..... so much to disect about that but this is not the thread to do it (different topic) I guess I'd see if the local was ok, let them try it and hope with my fingers crossed that they would come back home and want to be out of the system. I so firmly believe in autonomy and just feel reverent about self directed learning.

One thing about the reincarnation stuff - I think most gurus on this think that the child chooses the parent. Which means that the parent his/her self is the karmic guide this child needs through life, since they themselves picked them. It is very arrogant to decide to become a teacher in order to take this job over - dontcha think :lol"

She says she has loads more she wants to post when she has time.
Several other people are on, one deciding not to go to steiner, and one who was disturbed that the posts were origionally removed, and how this thread is giving her real food for thought.

Janni · 01/04/2008 11:30

Thanks for that Northern, very interesting.

p.s. I thought maybe you were using anthrobot like a voodoo doll, to exorcise a few demons

Janni · 01/04/2008 11:41

Spot on about being drawn in by the beauty of the surroundings, so different to a normal classroom. Even now I have a pining for it because I am not an 'artistic' person who can make things look beautiful. I didn't question much at first because, contrary to many people's experience, my boys WERE happy. My younger son DESPERATELY didn't want to be removed. Short days, running around, long-term friends - that's what they liked and they were prepared to put up with any tedium in exchange.

Thebee · 01/04/2008 13:35

xxxxx/Northernrefugee39, you write on a discussion at another discussion board, where you participate:

"Several other people are on,...one who was disturbed that the posts were origionally removed ..."

It seems the one whose postings were removed was you and that the reason for removing them was trolling, the same way you and others from the WC-crew do here at MN since long, which btw violates MN policies too ...

zzooey · 01/04/2008 13:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 13:57

OOOh Sune- no- that wasn't the reason, because it's a chat board you haven't been on yet Sune.
And I hope you don't, because you bore people to death.

Why are you trying to put my name on here again Sune?
Is it because you're so frustrated there are people talking about steiner Waldorf somewhere, and you can't blunder in with your distorted views and websites?
Haven't we been through this? You are trying to get at me, but the only ones it gets at are my kids. They are seeing their friends at their old school this week, they still keep in touch with one or two, and I wouldn't want to stop that- they're young children; although I'm sure you don't give a damn, as long as you can g on propagating the lies and myths surrounding anthroposophy and steiner schools.

This other chat board, where the passages above are taken from, has no one from here on it.
I think it's enlightening and important that there are people discussing this all over the net. And important that it's realised it's not just here or on waldorf groups, but ordinary people. And the more the better too.

As for interference and distortion , it was you who wrote to Cornell university to try to discredit the academic Peter Staudenmaier wasn't it? How unbelieveable, how low can you sink?

Janni · 01/04/2008 14:00

Northernrefugee is an established poster on MN.

If memory serves, Thebee, you are neither a mother nor a father. I would ponder awhile on that one before accusing a mother of trolling on mumsnet.

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 14:07

Oh- Sune- you are a sad and desperate man.
Sune has obviously googled parenting sites and has found one thread I was on which has sort of drawn to a boring close- it's here

raising kids

He's started linking to all his bl..dy sites again.

I hope you have a llife sune, apart fom trawling the net for critics, or I think you are a sadder saddo than I ever imagined.

Well, you haven't found the interesting one yet.

justaboutasleep · 01/04/2008 14:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 14:17

Justa- hey hello! - is your no mumsnet penance over? How was it? How did you cope? have you been on other boards?

justaboutasleep · 01/04/2008 14:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

northernrefugee39 · 01/04/2008 14:29

Oh - I'm glad the holiday was good, I wouldn't have been able to contain myself... did you ask about the jelly human spirits and the surface of the moon being like boiled lettuce? Did you miss these bits? Man was at one time attatched to the suface of the moon by an astral umbilical cord, and at that time sucked milk out of his surroundings.....

Oh sune is boring everyone to death- he's livid at the moment because there's another discussion on anther board which he hasn't found- posters are coming on saying it's high time this was discussed. Thet're mostly aware of the anthroposophic agenda anyway- tho' more people are coming on all the time.

justaboutasleep · 01/04/2008 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Janni · 01/04/2008 15:31

Northern - that looks like a sensible discussion on the other board, quite balanced actually. What could he complain about there?

justabout - I never keep up with namechangers.
Remind me who you were? I'e already wrongly identified someone else so don't want to guess!

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