Number of children with additional needs in son’s class

[Sazzle12345]

DS is starting school in September. He is going to a lovely local CofE primary and has a number of friends from pre school in his class. It is a 30 child per year intake.

I have zero experience of teaching and am hoping that someone can put my mind at rest.

I know approx half of the class, and of those that I know 4 have additional needs - likely ADHD / autism (but too young for formal diagnosis). I know 2 of the children very well and their parents are of the view that their children won’t be able to remain in the class for long periods and will need one to one support. Both of them struggle with aggression when in large groups.

Whilst not wishing to sound in any way insensitive to the needs of those children (I appreciate life must be very tough at times for them and their parents), my concern is for my DS.

The class has one teacher and one TA. I don’t understand how the rest of the class will be able to be cared for, let alone given any sort of teaching when at any one time there are likely to be at least 2 children that need to be outside the room and others who will need extra hand holding beyond what is normal in a reception class.

Am I worrying unnecessarily? Do teachers have super powers that I am oblivious to? Or is this sort of number of children with additional needs the norm in a class of 30?

I have tried to phrase this sensitively as I genuinely do not wish to be in any way rude or insensitive to any SEN children or their parents.

I'm so sorry. My DS' experience of reception was similar. Sadly the school were not supportive, labelled him as naughty and excluded him many times. It was heart breaking to see him go from enjoying nursery to becoming a nervous wreck. He has now moved schools and things are somewhat brighter but my god it is soul destroying. I wish there was more in place to help.

I didn't imply anything. You stated that your child is currently in a mainstream that isn't appropriate and is causing disruption and that that situation is down to the local authority and not in any way your responsibility. I have no idea if the LA offer was appropriate or not, all I know is what you have posted, which is that in your opinion the LA offer was not appropriate and that other options such as EOTAS would not be compatible with your life. Your child will absolutely always be your priority and it's absolutely right that you advocate for him and do the best for him, but you can't then be surprised or offended if other parents feel that your 'disruptive' childs presence is not the best for their child.

Last time I checked differentiating work for children with EAL is not really comparable to dealing with chairs be lobbed around, classrooms being evacuated and the staff levels needed to manage the safety of young children who make a run for it.

Of course - the child with unmet needs gets the worst of it

Tell that to my daughter who became the obsession of a child with violent behavioural issues. First the teachers made her sit on the support table in class (despite her having no SEN herself) so he would be calm. Made to play with him at lunch to keep him calm but he wouldn't let anyone lese play with them. I knew noting about any of this. When she finally told me I didn't realise the seriousness of the situation and just told her to say "I don't want to play with you today Billy". (NRN) Big mistake. He attacked her. Had her on the ground and was punching her in the head. Bearing in mind this kid had had least 2st over my daughter. My daughter was the one who was told to stay home for s week while the school set up some safety bounderies. Not the boy who attacked because his SEN meant he had to be in school and the school had no way to keep her safe. After several meetings with the school a whole plethora of incidences were uncovered and his parents just didn't want to know. "It's not his fault." Following the assault he was obviously kept away from her and she was told to run to a member of staff if he got near her or run to the office for help if she couldn't find anyone outside. She didn't want to move schools and they seemed to have a handle on it.
The kid was finally expelled when on a school trip in front of several staff members, parents and the whole class he tried to push her on to the train tracks at our village station. Despite being held on to by both his mother and the teacher. (I do understand this is one instance and an extreme one at that.)

So do not just assume because a child has SEN they "get the worst of it". It can be so frightening for children who are not used to violence/meltdowns etc to suddenly be exposed this kind of behaviour. A child's education experience is not worth less because they do not have SEN. The above was caused by lack of funding, lack of training, the parents' refusal to accept that his SEN did not excuse his behaviour and that mainstream school is not suitable for consistently violent children.

As for the poster who said OPs child will "cope". No child should have to just "cope" at school. SEN or no SEN.

And before someone says ableism I have a severely neurologically disabled child with ASD, ADHD-combined, GDD (age 8 but functioning at 18 months), SPD and EDS who attends a specialist school.

Luckily @jenandberrys my DS doesn’t do any of the things mentioned in your final
paragraph - and you reveal your innate prejudice by assuming that he does.

It’s almost worth leaving DS in mainstream just to annoy people like you who seem to want allinconvenient disabilities to be invisible (and we both know the law is on my side there).

I haven't suggested your son does any of those things. I have just pointed out that challenging behaviour is very different to EAL in terms of impact on peers. It's almost like I used a separate paragraph to show that that part of my response was to the latter part of your post, sorry you missed that. Maybe I should have spelled it out more clearly for you.

You are the one who said your son was disruptive, no one else.

Quite right @jenandberrys. Why don't we grade children by their abilities and the ones that aren't normal enough could be sent off to 'special wards' so that they cease to hold the able back? It was all the rage in Vienna in the 1930s.

I am not annoyed your son is in mainstream, I think it's incredibly sad that he is not having his needs met and as a result of that, both his education and the education of others is being disrupted. The fact that you would want that situation to continue longer than absolutely necessary in order to 'annoy' a stranger on the internet is really tragic for him. Maybe focus on what is best for him rather than trying to win some imagined fight. The SEN system is fucked on a national scale, you have been given some useful information about EOTAS, maybe try and find a solution rather than win a fight.

Yes. Our values and priorities as a nation have led to the needs of the most vulnerable going unmet, which does have consequences for all. We are in this together and need to make it work. We all benefit from a more inclusive society in which everyone's needs are met, not just the people who consider themselves to be 'normal'.

Yes that's exactly what I said. The suggestion that children with violent behaviour should have appropriate provision and that staff and children should be safeguarded from being hurt by their peers is just like nazism! You got me.

I cannot believe you actually typed that out, read it back and then posted it.

Out of interest, would you be happy to be punched in the face by a coworker?

This thread is depressing.

SEN provision in England is completely fucked. Hundreds of thousands of children are being failed

Quite right @jenandberrys. Why don't we grade children by their abilities and the ones that aren't normal enough could be sent off to 'special wards' so that they cease to hold the able back? It was all the rage in Vienna in the 1930s

Please don’t give her any ideas, this thread is dreadful enough.

That number of SEN children will have a negative impact on the whole class. It’s unfair on the students their families and the staff. It’s unfair for all involved.

I’m honestly a bit bemused by it. My DS is now 16, and has been educated in mainstream (private) schools throughout, with 1 to 1 support initially but latterly fully independent. And I’ve known and been aware of many others. I have only been aware of one instance of a child being consistently violent ( prior to DX and support being put in place). This thread gives the impression of an epidemic of violence by kids with SN in our schools.
for the record my son has been the victim of violence from NT kids on a number of occasions.

@jenandberrys It should be pretty obvious that a 4 year old entering an educational establishment that has statutory responsibilities to meet his developmental needs is really not the same as you and your co-worker.

@ForTheLoveOfSleep I am so sorry your daughter had to go through all of this. No child should suffer at the hands of another child.

We had similar with DC in reception... it was always DC's fault getting hurt for not sharing a toy with SEN child or sitting to close to SEN child at lunchtime or not playing with SEN child in the playground...
(We are talking about scratches to neck, throat, face and arms, some deep enough to draw blood and one has left a scar.)

I sometimes think these incidents should be logged to highlight the issues around the violence of some SEN children in mainstream schools. Then the authorities could finally be held accountable for their stupid saving money inclusion policy - don't get me wrong, inclusion is great when it works. But it's not a one size fits all.
(A bit like going to the police for GBH. Obviously only logging incidents and injuries plus the age but without names as we are talking about children and there shouldn't be any comeback to either child.)

Could we log all the violence and bullying of kids with SN by the NT kids too? I think that might disclose some quite interesting facts …

It's not clear to me. I absolutely think children with SEND should be in the provision that best meets their needs, mainstream or not, and that it may require adjustments from the rest of the class. Being punched is never acceptable, even when the child is acting because of an unmet need.

AgathaSpencerGregson but your child was educated privately so that's why. This thread is talking about the situation in state schools.

I was more thinking of gathering data for better provision.

But if you want to include bullying and violence on both sides that could e helpful and underline the issues further.

I’m not just talking about my child though - I’m talking about a whole range of kids educated in both sectors. (I must say too that I’m curious as to what special sauce you think a private school has to sprinkle on the situation.)

I couldn't agree more. The lack of funding into SEND impacts ALL children in school and this is something I don't think people realise at all.

I've heard it be referred to as the SEN pandemic. With people wondering why there suddenly seems to be so many Sen children in classes at the moment. Well these children always existed but the waiting lists to get them the support and provision they need are actually ridiculous now, so they're just left to bumble along in classrooms at best they can.

There is absolutely an epidemic of unmet needs and the levels of violence stemming from this situation is also of epidemic proportions. 10 years ago it was rare that children in primary settings were displaying the level of challenging behaviour that is now relatively commonplace. When you have children with unmet needs in a mainstream setting, waiting for 2,3,4 years for a placement to be agreed for them the results are not pretty. Even where local authorities are willing to find places there are no places available. It is an absolute scandal

Oh I always hope that posters like this then either have their child have SEN that become evident as the social, language and cognitive demands increase through the school years, or have a second child that struggles and has SEN.

I have two lovely kids. My youngest is autistic and has ADHD. She is an absolute delight to have in school - calm, compliant, empathetic to the point where she'll turn into a melting pool of emotion if her friends are upset. Her ADHD is inattentive type and her autism is marked by a total rigidity to follow rules (her teacher's word is LAW) and people please.

But yep, on MN we just want kids with autism and ADHD - and it's always those two as the MN Twat-bingo card of "rampaging mini psychos who will ruin my snookum's education" locked away so they don't exist in any space at all.

May I remind you all of the "this is my child" campaign that MNHQ seem to have completely forgotten about.