Page 11 | Don't seem to like private schooling

Chickpea17 · 2023-04-26T09:55:24+00:00

So off the back of a thread I just seen why do so many people on MN seem to dislike private schooling so much? I'm not judging one way or another just curious. I have a almost 5 year old and we can't afford private schooling so haven't given it much thought.

Labraradabrador · 27/04/2023 21:55

BreathesOutSlowly · 27/04/2023 21:42

@Labraradabrador I feel that introducing vat and cancelling charitable status for private schools may go some way towards this goal. Not far enough obviously.

Not sure how knocking out the more middle class parents stretching to afford private is going to achieve the goal of greater equality? It just makes private schools even more exclusive.

thing47 · 27/04/2023 22:49

Children going to into private schools are on average more intelligent

Well universities don't seem to agree with you, either going into them or coming out of them. So I call bollocks.

Heatherbell1978 · 28/04/2023 06:07

Refrosty · 27/04/2023 21:24

I find the comments about private healthcare interesting. It's not quite life or death, but I am paying for private speech therapy for my DC who is on the NHS waiting list, and has been for a year. I would never ever expect people to be cross about that choice. But given the fact that there are 4 (maybe more?) other kids in my DC's nursery class on the same waiting list, it does feel very unfair that I can access a therapist at this crucial time, but others might not be able to afford it so will continue to wait. But that's life, it's never going to be fair and I'm sure many of the other parents would do the same. DC's teacher can see the difference with my DC, it was like night and day, the therapist is helping.

Incidentally, and more appropriate for this thread, my local catchment secondary school is not great at all. 20% with English and maths grade 5 (very recent inspection). Teachers come and go. Many parents (who have the means) absolutely DO move into better catchments. Not just closer to best school in the area, some move specifically to be in catchment of the grammars. Nobody can say anything to me that would make me feel bad about choosing an alternative path than sending my kid to our catchment school. And speaking of the catchments! They are tricky bastards aren't they! A new school opened, which meant families were praising fact they had another option ... Except my area didn't end up in catchment. There's a grammar a short drive away. We aren't in catchment, despite this area being more deprived than many other areas of equal distance. Social mobility, whatever. I'm reading some of these posts and wondering what they'd say if faced with choices between schools like ours, heavily tutoring to access the grammar, or private (of varying selection levels).

You're spot on. We've decided to send our kids private for secondary as the local state is quite frankly in a state. Not a choice we've made lightly as it'll stretch us for years. Friends have all been quite 'nothing wrong with state' but these are the same people who have moved into areas specifically for a school or in one case are actively seeking a new house in a specific catchment. We could do that but I love my house and we've spent a lot of money making it work for us (extension, garden office etc). It'll cost us about the same for private school fees as it would to move.

How am I any different? I'm tired of the hypocrisy where it's 'bad' that I would choose to spend money on my kids education but everything else is fair game. A friend spends £10k every year on a Florida trip to Disneyworld, that's their choice but that's almost as much as a year of school fees. I don't have a desire for Disney anyway but is it bad I'd rather spend that money on fees and do a cheap holiday?

SoTedious · 28/04/2023 08:36

How am I any different? I'm tired of the hypocrisy where it's 'bad' that I would choose to spend money on my kids education but everything else is fair game. A friend spends £10k every year on a Florida trip to Disneyworld, that's their choice but that's almost as much as a year of school fees. I don't have a desire for Disney anyway but is it bad I'd rather spend that money on fees and do a cheap holiday?

If you have a read of the thread the difference between private education and a holiday / Rolex watch / other luxury has been explained multiple times.

WoolyAndYug · 28/04/2023 11:04

The truth is parents who send their kids to private schools don't need anyone else to accept that or be happy about it. They will continue to make choices for their family, as other families do for theirs.

Even if charitable status is withdrawn etc private schools will remain part of society so it doesn't matter how much some people disagree with them, it's a service that is there for whoever is willing to pay for it.

The way state education is going in this country I can only see private schools becoming more and more popular.

Labraradabrador · 28/04/2023 11:20

yes @SoTedious and many on this thread have explained why it feels like an arbitrary line drawn in the sand: spending £££ on enrichment, tutoring, days out, holidays, houses in catchment, etc is totally fine (or some combination is fine depending on poster), but private education is the bit that’s immoral? You can explain at me all day long, but I just don’t agree with your reasoning.

the real advantage comes from having parents with time and money to spend on their children - private education is just one manifestation. We do not live in a completely level society, and that is not something I personally think we should aspire to either. I do think we should have robust state education available to all children, but I don’t think we should bar people from seeking alternative provision when their priorities differ from the state’s and they have the means to pay for it.

SoTedious · 28/04/2023 11:49

many on this thread have explained why it feels like an arbitrary line drawn in the sand: spending £££ on enrichment, tutoring, days out, holidays, houses in catchment, etc is totally fine (or some combination is fine depending on poster), but private education is the bit that’s immoral? You can explain at me all day long, but I just don’t agree with your reasoning

It's not arbitrary and it's not my reasoning or opinion, there is research on this. Private education contributes to social inequality. If you like social inequality, crack on, but surely you can understand that some people don't.

As has been explained many times, it's not the buying of better resources that is the problem, it's the disproportionate presence of the privately educated in public life. ~75% of our brightest students come from the state sector, so you would hope that ~75% of people in positions of power and influence should come from the state sector. And yet they don't. It's bad for everyone when the brightest and most able are excluded for no better reason than how rich their parents are.

Labraradabrador · 28/04/2023 13:22

The research shows that the impact of family far exceeds school situation.

private education provides a modest but measurable advantage, but I am not sure why taking that away helps society? Surely a better alternative is to make private education more accessible through transferable vouchers, more incentives for bursaries, etc.

And again, you are conflating’people in power’ with the majority of private alumni who jus have modestly better careers than they would otherwise. The ‘powerful’ achieve’power’ through family and family connections- eliminate Eton and they would find another way to network.

and finally you are taking a really narrow view of ‘equitability.’ As a parent of a child with mild SEN, part of my reason for going private is to balance that modest benefit against a biological disadvantage. Some children need more / different resources than others, which state struggles to accommodate.

twistyizzy · 28/04/2023 13:35

Labraradabrador · 28/04/2023 13:22

The research shows that the impact of family far exceeds school situation.

private education provides a modest but measurable advantage, but I am not sure why taking that away helps society? Surely a better alternative is to make private education more accessible through transferable vouchers, more incentives for bursaries, etc.

And again, you are conflating’people in power’ with the majority of private alumni who jus have modestly better careers than they would otherwise. The ‘powerful’ achieve’power’ through family and family connections- eliminate Eton and they would find another way to network.

and finally you are taking a really narrow view of ‘equitability.’ As a parent of a child with mild SEN, part of my reason for going private is to balance that modest benefit against a biological disadvantage. Some children need more / different resources than others, which state struggles to accommodate.

Well said

SoTedious · 28/04/2023 13:48

The best way for you @Labraradabrador (or anyone) to gain understanding into this is probably to read the Sutton Trust report. It's from 2019, called elitism in Britain or something like that 👍

twistyizzy · 28/04/2023 13:55

@SoTedious actually the Sutton Trust says:

"While much recent focus has been placed on the private school sector, Britain’s independent schools are far from the only means through which financial resources have an impact on schooling. The use of private tuition outside school is one of the most important. Private tutoring has been referred to as the ‘shadow education system’, operating in parallel to Britain’s schools. It’s big business, with some estimates putting the British market at a value of £2 billion, and it has substantial impacts on parents, children and teachers."

Shadow Schooling: Private tuition and social mobility in the UK - Sutton Trust

This report provides an overview of the private tuition market in the UK and how it intersects with social mobility.

https://www.suttontrust.com/research-paper/shadowschooling-private-tuition-social-mobility/

twistyizzy · 28/04/2023 14:01

@SoTedious in fact the Sutton Trust's Open Access scheme wants independent schools to stay open but through democracy of applications ie stay selective but with a sliding scale of fees.

NNat · 28/04/2023 14:49

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Buebananas · 28/04/2023 15:01

Private tutoring has been referred to as the ‘shadow education system’, operating in parallel to Britain’s schools. It’s big business, with some estimates putting the British market at a value of £2 billion, and it has substantial impacts on parents, children and teachers.

If private schools were abolished then private tutoring would probably increase even more. If there's a demand for a service and people are willing to pay for it, it will be provided.

thing47 · 28/04/2023 15:03

Re universities: Contextual offers are a recognition that not all schooling is equal. They are a bit of a blunt instrument, to be sure, but the reason universities use them is because they realise GCSE and A level results require context as to where and how they were obtained.

At the other end, the vast majority of universities do not ask for A level results on a Masters application because they don't believe it has huge relevance to their suitability for post-graduate study.

twistyizzy · 28/04/2023 15:03

Buebananas · 28/04/2023 15:01

Private tutoring has been referred to as the ‘shadow education system’, operating in parallel to Britain’s schools. It’s big business, with some estimates putting the British market at a value of £2 billion, and it has substantial impacts on parents, children and teachers.

If private schools were abolished then private tutoring would probably increase even more. If there's a demand for a service and people are willing to pay for it, it will be provided.

Exactly. Parents who can afford to buy an advantage will always do so when the state offer is so poor.

NNat · 28/04/2023 15:04

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Refrosty · 28/04/2023 16:25

From said 2019 report.

undergroundstation · 04/05/2023 13:33

twistyizzy · 26/04/2023 14:44

What about the private schools who can cater for SEN children because of the resources at their disposal, when those children can't be supported in state schools because there is no money to do so? Are those schools damaging for the children who attend them?
You are using a reductionist theory and I would be interested to know how many children you know who went to private school and which private schools.

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Thing is, the kids I know at private special/specialist schools all have their fees paid by the local council!

i think it totally wrong that there is not more high quality special school provision, and the fact the system is broken is shown by the fact that the state pays private providers to educate a great many children. The private specialist schools I know have a high proportion of council funded kids, so this is not the situation of other private schools.

I know loads of kids at loads of private schools… and adults who have been through them.

can’t believe anyone could ever design our unfair system from scratch - it’s so evidently ineffective and unjust. Incredibly hard to change it, sure, but that does not make it ok!