Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

Who would bring them to these activities?! Or be at home with them to support the tutoring? I'm totally overstretched and the only satisfaction is knowing that all of these things are done at school, where they can stay until 6pm. Take it away and no, I won't carry on. Honestly, the people suggesting this have no idea of logistics and practical issues within families. I find this so naive and infuriating.

I meant to quote this post...

I was trying (and failing!) to find a good link that encapsulates it!

It centres on whether the institution meets the definitions (in other legislation) of a school (so offering full time education, for a duration (ie length of day and numbers of days in the academic year) that meets standards/regulations currently in force, and providing a broad curriculum). Not an institution where you simply buy and attend certain exam courses.

(There are also rules about the size of a group being taught together regularly which can make certain settings count as schools - this was to bring inspection oversight to very small groups which are providing full time education. Drop in/informal HE groups aren't covered, nor are one day 'schools' run at weekends)

In terms of capacity of state schools, falling numbers may indeed mean there aren't issues further down the school system. But IIRC something like 20% of 6th form students are in the independent sector. There could be some reallly serious problems caused at that level I suspect.

The funding for students moving from private to state remains the same even if there is spare capacity in schools. Schools are funded on a per pupil basis meaning that if students move, the policy won't raise the tax revenue its intending too. Whether state schools actually have space to enrol pupils switching sectors will depend. Right now, in London at least, schools are being closed down and merged already to get rid of the spare capacity in the system. By 2025 when its clear if this is actually going to happen, the entire vacancy position for state schools may look entirely different.

All that will happen is people in London / Kent will start tutoring at 3 for the 11+. It is already ridiculous but will get worse.
The big well known private schools will not suffer. The Chinese, middle east, russian contingent can afford 15 per cent increase. £40k per year will become £46k per year, no problem.
The middle ranking, smaller schools outside of the south east will suffer. State schools are dire where we live and we pay school fees out of income so every add on will make a difference. Schools will feel the pinch and for these less known schools the availability of bursaries may drop.

To put some figures on this, Labour's calculation of £1.7 billion assumes they will get a little over £3k per child from independent schools. Total funding per child for the state system is around £7.5k. Some of that is swallowed up in various costs, so schools actually receive around £5.2k per pupil on average. Every pupil that moves from independent schools to state education will cost the government between £8.2k and £10.5k per annum in lost income and increased costs. Of course, this assumes that existing schools have enough spare capacity for these pupils. If they don't, there will be additional capital costs to build new schools or extend existing ones.

Name changed

We are foreign and in a lucky position where the fee increase (15% or 20% or whatever over inflation) is not a problem financially.

Selfishly, it would be a positive move for us as the selective private schools will be within easier reach due to less competition.

Don't think it will be a positive for the Uk education as a whole and I wouldn't want it to happen to my home country, but the Labour's that particular move would be welcome by those wealthy in London.

My kids go to private schools which i scrimp and save to afford.

I will personally make it my mission to stop the school sharing their pitch/STEM and maths outreach programmes and swimming pool if they lose their charitable status.

Can't have it both ways!

@prh47bridge your figures highlight an underfunded system which is unfit for purpose, along with an underestimation from both political major parties as to what is needed.

At the moment only children educated in the state system are disadvantaged by the unfit system. Disadvantaged not only in terms of education but also in terms of mental health and so many other things.

Teachers see this, school leaders see this, parents and pupils see this. Almost everyone agrees but they are powerless to effect change.

I cannot see a solution without an enormous shift in understanding and priorities from decision makers.

This change is not forthcoming and I don't blame anyone who can afford it to bypass the system and pay for their children's education. This benefits their own child(ren) and no one can expect a parent not to do that for their own child.

However, I cannot help but I think that the only way that things will improve for the state sector is for more people to back the change. This will only happen if they and their children are affected in the same way as the rest of us.

Sorry, I should have added that I realise that adding VAT won't preclude all children from attending private school. But it will mean more parents being invested in voting for and caring about improving state education.

Fair enough.

Certainly in our county only a minuscule percentage of state educated children are able to benefit from such programmes, it so generally in a one off basis and they are never aimed at children who are most struggling in these areas.

Also, please don't think that teachers in the state sector are less skilled than those in the private sector. It is superior facilities and not teaching skills that make private schools able to offer these opportunities.

The teachers at my son's school are mostly incredibly skilled and talented but the quality of their lessons is affected by funding, facilities, class sizes, lack of support for pupils needing interventions and all sorts of other pressures.

Give them a smaller class size, of similar ability, time, resources and space and they would be providing their own fantastic outreach and specialist lessons.

@freckles20 your statement

At the moment only children educated in the state system are disadvantaged by the unfit system. Disadvantaged not only in terms of education but also in terms of mental health and so many other things.

Is part of why the system is broken, if parents expect the state system to be broken, those that can afford it will give up and go elsewhere such as the private system, those can't may give up and say 'well that is to be expected and there is nothing I can do about it'. I've seen great schools at work. My daughter is in one of them, yes it is a grammar school but I have friends which DCs thriving in comprehensives in affluent and deprived areas. Making sweeping statements like this is not helpful. As a parent I've been to spruce up days to paint walls, sand down science benches, local and national businesses have contributed all sorts of things from skips and paint to plants and spades. It has created a great community spirit. I know some great Parent Governors who make great contributions to the schools they volunteer with.

Yes there will be people who say 'but schools shouldn't have to do this' but again that is being defeatist and ignoring all the amazing things that can be done in, with and for state schools. School accounts should record all this sort of hidden funding and the value of volunteer work (down to teachers supplying glue sticks that we often hear about) so the state can see what level they should be funding to, not what they are getting away with.

I also know pupils at private schools with far worse mental health than those at the local state schools, the pressure on the private educated is keenly felt by some as the parents want to see 'it was worth it' and the drugs and eating disorders are hideous.

As a parent who ( I hang my head in shame ) who sent DS to the school in Hampshire that Sunak never stops talking about,I do hope that Labour go ahead with this. They are dreadful institutions and a millstone around the neck of anyone who attends them.

Thiswayups this is interesting. What made you change your mind? Was it that your ds hated the school or did you suddenly think ‘no, private education is wrong’?

@Southwestten Having seen the institution from the inside ,we as a family know just how toxic it is. DS survived but we certainly regret sending him there. I have never thought that private schools such have tax relief but then again I think that the chancellor’s /PM ‘s wife should pay tax while living in the UK.

Hopefully the end of this government is getting closer.

Thiswayups thank you for answering my question.
In what way was it toxic?

I wouldn’t really want to share details on a public form @Southwestten. I shudder when I think of the poor pastoral care , a very toxic environment is the best way to describe it.

Ok, fair enough.

I agree that more people should be complaining about the state of the education system. However, given that 93% of children are educated in the state education system, that’s a huge number of parents who could be calling for higher standards and helping practically in the way that other posters are. I’m not sure an extra 7% of parents complaining is going to make much difference (especially as a large number of those are international students and wouldn’t be using the state system anyway).

Unfortunately the problems with the state system run far deeper than funding. Simply throwing money at the problem isn’t going to solve all the issues. Interestingly, the schools with the poorest facilities around here are the ones with the best results and outcomes for children. There are state schools with facilities far better than some private schools which have dreadful outcomes for the children.

Real terms funding in the state education system has more than doubled since the early 80s. I can’t see that standards have increased by a corresponding amount. There needs to be a detailed look at how the funding is actually spent to check that the taxpayer is getting value for money.

@freckles20 a minuscule amount of British dc attend private schools too. Ours is full of foreign dc who either come here for a better education than they can get in their countries or their parent(s) are working here on visas or simply to learn English for the future.

They're simply unaffordable to most British families. The smaller more affordable ones are more likely to shut because they're full of parents scrimping and saving to send their dc to a different type of school for whatever reason. The majority of dc go to state school so no real reason for current parents to already be doing something vs thinking private school parents suddenly magicking up the answers to our educational issues. I won't be protesting for better state schools if I can no longer afford private.

I will be researching private tutors and spending the money on those and other educational activities such as better trips abroad or expensive experiences I can't really afford right now due to fees.

I really doubt any of the parents at the private school my dc attends will be putting much time into anyone's dc but their own. The best way to sort people attending private schools out is to make state schooling fabulous. The grammar system in the area I live does exactly this and nearly every family prep or state attempts to get their dc into these. It's the rest of the schools that now need to be sorted out,

The education system needs to improve. It clearly is improving - we are going up the international tables at the moment - but more is needed. In particular, the gap between disadvantaged pupils and the rest is too big and, although progress has been made in closing that gap, it is closing far too slowly. At the current rate of progress, it will take around 500 years to close the gap completely.

I'm not sure whether throwing more money at schools is the answer. Recent studies have found that there is no link at all between school funding and outcomes. This applies both within the UK and internationally. How the money is spent is as important, if not more so, than how much money is spent. Which isn't to say there is no case for increasing funding. There clearly is. But it isn't a magic bullet.

Even if independent schools were abolished, it wouldn't improve the voice of those most let down by the current system. Disadvantaged pupils don't generally go to independent schools.

... a flood of privately educated pupils.
*
About 25 per cent of privately educated pupils would leave for state schools if Labour’s proposed VAT policy was implemented, the Independent Schools Council (ISC) has claimed.*

If the ISC which has an interest in promoting the worst case scenario can only come up with 25% then I don't think there will be "a flood". They are talking about going from 93% in state education to 94.75%. (Assuming the much quoted figure of 7% educated privately is correct.)

Back of a fag packet tells me that's around 6 children extra per school, and we know some schools are undersubscribed and could take more than that, and that the birth rate is still falling.

(~10M total schoolchildren, ~30k state schools)

universities are paying more attention to those coming through the state system. If Labour implements it’s policy and more well-off kids go to state schools, then the whole idea behind prioritising state educated kids for the purpose of socio-economic diversity breaks down

I don't think this is an issue either - universities tend to either look at a child's performance in the context of the school, or they look at where the child lives in terms of socio-economic deprivation and low uptake of higher education. If all the rich people buy all the nice houses near the nice state schools, they will not be getting contextual offers either way.

I am not sure what the reasoning would be behind making schools fees subject to VAT but not University fees.

Surely the reasoning would be that there is the option of free state education to 18, so private education is a choice and a luxury? No such option for higher education, unfortunately.

There's no legislation forcing you to attend university, so that sort of falls at the first hurdle.

I'd be amazed if - once through - this was not applied to Uni fees.