Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

@proppy

Good point about the declining pupil numbers.

Yes this. Anytime I have ever 'demanded' say my child's legal ehcp is followed you get hostility and veiled threats as there no money to meet the legal minimums. The cash will never flow into state. The parents will get private tutors. Buy the houses next to to best state schools. It's shortsighted to think this will benefit state education. If I was minted I'd look at schooling abroad.

Birth rates have only dropped amongst the native population. But it doesn't mean that those school places aren't still full. Certainly where I am, the schools are full to capacity with waiting lists.

I don’t think the argument about fee paying parents already paying for state education through their taxes washes as that also applies to the childless.
Some smaller independent schools will fold but there will always be parents with very deep pockets and others who scrimp and save to keep their child at school. I do expect that areas such asKent and Essex with grammar schools will be under pressure to provide places.

Can you expand on what the policy will be?

You seem to have conflated two issues.

One is the application of VAT on fees - this is unrelated to charitable status, and will have no impact on VAT on anything else to do with the running of the school.

The other is the ending of charitable status for schools, which is surpisingly complex issue (for all sorts of legacy reasons) and I would be very interested to see the exact proposals on how this would be done without provoking a wave of school closures. and if those closures were deemed to be worth it, what is the plan for the state sector on how it will absorb the additional pupils.

@Jonei birth rates in general have dropped? Do you have data that it's just natives?

But it doesn't mean that those school places aren't still full. Certainly where I am, the schools are full to capacity with waiting lists.

This is where data as opposed to anecdotal experience is important...

https://www.islingtontribune.co.uk/article/shake-up-as-schools-see-pupil-numbers-dwindle

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/falling-primary-numbers-force-council-to-consider-mergers/

www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/our-key-themes/children-and-young-people/education-and-school-places/managing-surplus-school-places

@Jonei

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2021

There has been a downward trend for decades.

Have Labour published any detailed policy or any impact analysis?

it seems like a foolish idea that will just widen inequality. The elites must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of all those hardworking intelligent middle class kids that will be forced into the state sector.

Why?

Do you have an understanding of how many kids involved?

As I said.

I'd like to see statistics to back up claims I've read.

Ive worked in education for decades.

What we get told (but none ever actually proves) is that if more pupils attend state education then there with will a bigger distribution of pupils across state education which will improve social mobility and funding.

It was the reason many areas of the U.K. stopped grammar education.

The theory is that schools have limits so not everyone can move into a catchment and if too many people move into catchments for what they call the hood schools those catchments will decrease spreading those pupils to other local schools.

And absolutely teachers can't do more. This isn't about those who work in education but rather the theory around state schools and standards.

VAT is charged on goods and services and IMO private education is a service.

I don't disagree wrt private healthcare. I don't think it is quite as cut and dry, but there is certainly an argument for it.

I hear a great deal of 'I'm alright Jack' undertones in the arguments for school fees being VAT free. In the spirit of transparency I don't blame parents for this- no one should be expected to throw their own children under the bus of state education if they can afford decent private school fees. No one except those who are driving the bus.

But, leaving that aside for a moment, a set up which allows the wealthiest parents to buy their child out of the mess of state education is a luxury- and should be subject to VAT.

Plus the government (both major parties) have driven the education system past breaking point without damaging their own children or their teachers. I am certain that if their children were state educated they would have taken a different approach.

I do think a few more shouty parents would help drive education up the political agenda - if people can no longer afford to buy their way out of poor state provision, they’ll help drive change.

Yes this is the theory I've been talking about.

I have a friend who's a staunch Tory supporter. She always goes in about how bad the strikes are to improve state education and it's not that bad.

Her ds went to independent school from year 5.

Because his state primary was awful 🤦🏼‍♀️🤷‍♀️

@Scaevola I'm not conflating anything. The policy is well documented.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-64238053

I agree. The already very expensive catchments for the good state schools will become even more expensive. We will always end up with a system where the rich can pay for a better education. If it’s not via private school fees, it’s via housing.

To be honest, I can’t see Labour ever implementing this. I can’t see that it will benefit anyone.

At the moment to keep this charitable status they do bursaries and things, some of that will go, if not immediately turn over time, that will offset some of it, maybe schools will also invest a bit less in new buildings if they are unaffordable, add in vat rebates, maybe 10% net increase. Some who are already struggling may close and blame it on this, some families won’t start, most already there will grin and beat it until 11/GCSEs at least. The daily mail will find a handful of stories to publish showing kids who may have left anyway and blame the government.

@freckles20

Decision makers might actually get involved.

No they won't. Millionaires like Rishi, Boris and Starmer have enough money to pay the extra 20%.

No it won't. People who can afford private school will buy their way into the catchment of good schools and then do state plus (tutors and paid for extracurricular activities) like many wealthy parents already do who use state. They'll also support the specific already advantaged state schools they attend financially.

There is already huge inequality in the state system that will only be made worse. I have extensive experience of both sectors. During COVID, my local state school was able to raise £25k from parents for a new computing lab. A less affluent state primary school in the same borough was begging for donations for old laptops for their disadvantaged pupils to do remote schooling.

The only way state education will ever be 'equal' between schools if a lottery system is implemented. However, this was trialled in Brighton and voters hate it.

To those who feel that the state sector could not accommodate increased numbers of pupils which are currently in the private sector. They would have to.

To those who think investment in state schools wouldn't increase: it would have to.

You're basically saying that the broken system can't be fixed so let's allow the children with the wealthiest parents to bypass it.

No. Let's give our leaders no choice but to create a system that works and which is good enough for their own children.

Let's vote a government in which makes this a priority. Or at the very least let's not vote a government in which not only doesn't make this a priority but makes it worse whilst providing vat free options for their own loved ones to bypass it.

Granted. There are other decision makers, people with influence and loud voices who would be affected though.

Plus, those that can afford it should pay vat on it. It is a luxury.

You have, because you have assumed that the application of VAT on fees is related to charitable status

It is not.

They are two entirely separate issues.

If they proposal is to end charitable status, that will have little effect on fees (the value is estimated (by The Guardian) to be worth around £200 per pupil per term). Depending on how they propose to end the status, it might provoke a wave of closures (because there is no current mechanism to turn charitable assets into privately owned ones under the law as it stands, and that is an important bulwark against misuse of charities in all the home nations of UK). Schools that are not charities are wholly unaffected, and no-one seems to know what would be the impact on schools which have their own Acts of Parliament.

Ending charitable status does not mean VAT on fees. That depends on an entirely different exemption under tax law. That was an EU legacy (no taxation on education in nurseries, schools or universities) but of course post-Brexit we can now change that

To those who feel that the state sector could not accommodate increased numbers of pupils which are currently in the private sector. They would have to

Of course. My question is how?

This is an entirely predictable consequence of the policy. So needs to be planned for, and I would like to know what that plan is.

The Times had an analysis of this policy. Personally I think this would be a deeply irresponsible thing to do. Fine to plan to phase out private school in the long term if your aim is to remove it altogether. But to switch overnight and dump children from one into the other would cause untold disruption. It's not thought through at all and risks children's education at all years.

Does Starmer’s tax plan for private schools add up?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0a9ebb80-d542-11ed-9f4d-c5bd4b89feab?shareToken=fcbe0564abc9ef82936724fb39b6e66f

"But perhaps the most controversial proposal so far is Labour’s plan to levy VAT on private school fees (raising £1.6 billion) and make schools fully liable for business rates (a further £104 million). The policy prompted Sunak to accuse Starmer in December of failing to understand aspiration.

Independent schools have also warned that the policy, if enacted, would pile pressure on the state sector as it copes with a flood of privately educated pupils.

About 25 per cent of privately educated pupils would leave for state schools if Labour’s proposed VAT policy was implemented, the Independent Schools Council (ISC) has claimed.

Recent analysis by the lobby group suggested this would significantly impact the ability of parents to access their first-choice state school. It looked at the impact on neighbouring state schools of a quarter of pupils leaving private schools, in ten local education authorities (LEAs) in England, covering at least 19 Labour constituencies.

The ISC said families in the southeast, Bristol, Birmingham and Manchester would find it particularly hard to get their first-choice school.

Julie Robinson, chief executive of the ISC, said: “Labour’s plan to remove independent schools’ charitable status and suddenly raise fees by adding VAT would disrupt the education of thousands of pupils and restrict parents’ ability to choose where their children go to school. It would outprice parents who already make financial sacrifices to pay the fees and it would drive more pupils into the state sector as a result, adding pressure to an already stretched system.”

Kieran McLaughlin, principal at Durham Cathedral Schools Foundation, which has three schools for three to 18-year-olds, said: “We are all taking the issue [of Labour’s tax plans] seriously and there is cross-association work being done to talk to Labour MPs on the potential impact, not just on independent schools but on the maintained sector too.”

The head of Moon Hall School, a special needs school in Surrey that provides a tailored education for dyslexic children, said Labour’s plans would place a “huge” financial burden on the school. All pupils there transfer from other schools so have already experienced alternative settings that cannot meet their needs. Some have dyspraxia, dyscalculia and ADHD.

Michelle Catterson said: “Any surpluses we make are moderate and are invested back into the school. We do not have dividends, beneficiaries or, indeed, large donations. We rely on the income we receive from the LEAs and our privately funded pupils to continue the successful running of the school.

“If the Labour policies regarding schools were to come into place it would have a hugely detrimental impact for our school. To lose our charitable status, when we provide for so many children locally and from neighbouring counties, would place a huge burden on our finances.”"

@freckles20 I don't think anyone is saying it can't be fixed. I think what I'm saying at least is this policy won't fix it.

There are much better policies for addressing issues in education but they require actually raising taxes more broadly which Labour doesn't want to do so this is just headline grabbing electioneering.

I have never said it was related to charitable status. Look at my posts. I said they are planning to apply VAT to fees, which they are @Scaevola

I think you’re right about that, although could be because of contextual offers as well.

Contextual offers are not given because of schools attended but because a potential student is the first in family to go to university or us in receipt of pupil premium funding.