Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

I agree.

I don’ t think fees will rise as much as people are expecting (and some of the rise will come from inflation, in any case). Private schools are already getting ready to trim costs and get round the change in status in various ways. And I have heard that if schools lose charitable status, they will be in a position to raise revenue more in other ways; I mean, if you are no longer feeling the need to share your facilities with the local state schools, for example, you’re now in a position to use those facilities in a way that raises revenue. Private schools are also going gangbusters on overseas branches in middle income countries and East Asia. Those will bring in a lot of money.

There will be some movement into state schools, but probably less than expected, and more at younger age groups, where the numbers of young kids are falling anyway. I do think that good state 6th forms will see a bit of pressure, though!

The numbers I have been being run on this, suggest that overall, these changes will result in a net increase in funding for state schools, though not by eye popping amounts. (The sources saying otherwise tend to be from, shall we say, “interested parties” like independent schools’ organizations, which tend to provoke responses of the Mandy Rice Davies variety: “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”)

I doubt that this will have any transformative effects on state schools. The idea that having private school parents in the state sector will put pressure on the edu sector to improve schools is nice, but I’m not sure it will work that way. These parents will mostly get their kids into good state schools that are already perfectly good, and not the troubled schools which represent the long tail of underachievement. Involved PTAs can raise money for sensory herb gardens or posher play equipment or whatever, but they can’t do things like “fund special schooling for those who need it so that lessons are less disrupted,” which might actually make a difference to kids’ outcomes. And former private school parents might campaign for higher taxes so that their local state school can be improved, but frankly I think they are more likely to want to keep their money and use it to have their kids tutored.

@user1477391263 i suspect you're pretty much right on all of that. As you say, the 'pressure' from wealthy parents would be very selective. And after all, let's not forget that there are ALREADY lots of wealthy parents in the state sector, yet education is in crisis in many ways - so that 'pressure' doesn't seem to be working so far.

It's basically a whackamole policy - as others have said, wealthy parents will always find a way to use their money to buy a better service (and arguably why shouldn't they, in an essentially capitalist democracy). Round us, the wealthy families in primary took one of three routes for secondary. Either they went private (like us). Or they tutored for grammar, and then used their money to fill the gaps in extra curricular between private and grammar with out of school clubs. Or they moved into the catchment of the best comps (or attended church for a couple of years) and supplemented with tutoring/clubs. None of this brings any benefit for the poorer comps that none of them send their children to, or really to the poorer children at the schools that they themselves attend.

What makes me cross is that, rather than saying 'there are some really great private schools out there, let's look at what they're doing right and also strengthen the requirement for them to provide services to the community', Labour take a short-sighted dog in the manger approach which won't end up helping anyone very much. If they want wealthy parents to use state education without just buying their way into the best schools and supplementing their children's education with outside tutors and clubs, then the only way that's going to work is by making state education much better across the board - carrot, not stick.

People may be surprised to learn that the percentage of children with SEN in the independent private sector is higher than it is in state sector - currently around 15% in private/public schools. Many borderline parents find the fees for private education when their DC start to struggle in the state sector.

In 2021/2022 (latest available figures) there were more than 85,000 children with SEN in independent schools and a further 4,000 at non-maintained special schools. How on earth will the state schools cope with the increases in provision required to deal with this if these schools start closing?

Not forgetting the SEN independent schools. I'm not sure if any of those run as charities but the fees are eye-watering compared to mainstream indi. My son is moving from a 36k pa school to a 60k pa school. Like I say I don't know if they already pay vat but any increase in fees goes straight back to local LAs. Maybe Labour will feel motivated to build more SEN schools to cover both the pmld / sld needs and the spl needs of the bright. Ideally they might feel inclined to offer early intervention. I doubt it.

This is a really stupid idea, as other have said. It will make modern private schools, which are surprisingly egalitarian in many respects, more elitist as only the very rich will be able to use them. More down to earth middle income families will just clog up the state system going forward and of course these are the people who know how to manipulate and play the system (and have the funds to do so) so it is going to effectively create a third tier of education.

1. Super elite private schools now filled (only) with the very wealthy - so back to turning out obnoxious toffs who have never mixed with middle income kids, bursary kids etc plus the odd few scholarship kids from terrible backgrounds who will fit in even less against the super rich, without the foil of the middle income kids whose parents make sacrifices to send them there.

1. The outstanding and church states schools (strangely they have no problem with these despite them being impossible to get into for many kids) in wealthy areas which will be almost exclusively hoovered up by wealthy and middle income families priced out of the above tier who will take all, instead of much, of the available catchment area housing.

1. The comps and academy chains in less desirable areas which will become ghetoized and entirely full of poorer families who also aren't then giving kids the opportunity to mix with people from other backgrounds, which is universally seen as a positive thing I think.

Dumb. Oh and the private schools won't be able to do any of the things they currently do in terms of community facilities. Local private schools here provide swimming pools for swimming lessons, run cadet facilities with local state schools, providing the space and equipment, put on shared drama productions with neighboring state schools, offer bursaries and scholarships to low income families, let state schools without playing fields (all sold off) use the sports facilities, run clubs open to local schools etc etc. That will all stop.

So short-sighted and politics of envy indeed.

Oh and as someone who used to live in Reigate, how Keir Starmer can claim to have had a 'state education' when he attended Reigate Grammar School from 1974-1981 and it became a private school in 1976 when he was in year 8/second year is beyond me. What a massive misrepresenting liar he is. I will also no longer be voting for Labour due to the fact he also tries to bend the truth on what it means to be a woman.

And as others have said, once private schools no longer have to offer their facilities to the community due to their charitable status and they become bsuinesses, they will simply rent out those swimming pools, sports facilities etc to offset the VAT increases and it will be the middle income kids only whose parents can pay for swimming lessons and football skills courses etc who benefit from them, rather than everybody at neighbouring state school.

1.7 billion ringfenced expenditure on education is not to be sneezed at!

This is an excellent summary of the future.

I wanted to vote Labour, on seeing how the tories have ruined the NHS. But now I can’t vote for Labour either.

We've just had an eye watering 10% fee rise anyway.

This is the one policy that will stop me voting Labour.

And if it goes through, I'll stop work and send my younger two to state school. The NHS will loose a senior doctor. But the state schools around us have no quality after/before school care, no after school sports etc and I won't pay for them to sit with a childminder.

I honestly don't even care anymore, I'm burnt out anyway so maybe it's the excuse I need.

That’s my main lure to private school as well @joan12

Actually, this thread has reminded me that our school has had a massive bursary drive, with the aim that no child should be priced out of the school if they are bright enough to be offered a place. I'd like to know what will happen with that if VAT is added to fees. I hope it would go towards supporting existing students, even if it is to the detriment of new bursary students.

Snap, Joan12 and Turquoisesilver

Work hard asNHS consultant to send SEN child to independent school who wasn’t getting adequate input for his condition at state school.

If I am priced out by this policy, I won’t be staying in the NHS full time! I’ll reduce NHS sessions, hire a few tutors for each subject and go on hols!

I’ve read figures which show that government spending on education is over £100bn a year. Even if the policy did raise the amounts predicted (unlikely in my opinion), I cannot see how they think that a 1.7% increase in state education funding will lead to vast improvements, and that’s assuming every penny went into the state system. Let’s not pretend this policy has anything to do with the apparent tax receipts, as they are tiny in the overall scheme of things. It’s a policy which is viewed as an easy vote winner. The problems with the state system are not going to disappear by imposing VAT on private school fees.

They need to show their working on that one. So far they seem to have just assumed there would be a net gain of 20% of current fees which is absurdly simplistic

A local SEN specialist school is an independent. 60% of places are funded by the LA the rest are privately funded. All pupils have various difficulties and mainstream doesn't work for them. Some parents sell their homes and move to afford the fees as it is. They are not necessarily very wealthy - just desperate to give their child an education (they've often been out of school for some time). The school is not for profit and I do not believe anyone benefits from making it more expensive.
The policy needs to have exemptions for SEN schools.

I am really interested in how they will deal with the detail on this. Some of the detail issues have been highlighted above by previous posters like how to deal with conversion from charitable status. Will they use a wide ranging description of private education covering things like out of school clubs/tutoring. What about groups/clubs for home schooled children? Or schools run be specialist charities for kids with SEN? Or costs for after school childcare? When does childcare turn into education? If they use a tight definition of education I can imagine private schools badging a lot of what they offer as childcare/clubs. I can see implementation throwing up lots of issues.

It's not just the money. It's also a point of principle. I personally find the idea of some of the most privileged people in the country benefitting from charitable status. Leaves a very nasty taste.

Wonder how long it is before they come after the university fees and add VAT to them too then…. 🙄
Labour’s policy on private school fees will be a major factor in me not voting for them at the next election (and no, I’m not a Tory either) and I say that as a parent to two children in state education.

A lot of independent schools aren’t charities. Unfortunately the mainstream media and political parties seem to overlook this a lot of the time.

@Another76543 I know. The ones that aren't won't be affected.

Local authorities currently send quite a lot of children with SEN to private schools, because they can't accommodate them in the state sector. I wonder what they'll do with those children if those private schools are forced to close? And would the LA have to pay the private school the plus-VAT price of they still use the school?

Labour’s figures assume that all schools will be subject to VAT, as far as I’m aware. The schools which aren’t charities don’t have to charge VAT either. The charity argument and the VAT argument are totally separate. I’m not convinced a lot of Labour Party members understand this though.

@Another76543 correct!

I can't see the benefit to anyone doing this.
Private schools will become more elite than ever. State schools which are already full will see even more numbers turned away. Grammar school places will be even more competitive than they already are.
Traffic will be busier in certain state school areas. House prices in good school areas will go up even further. The list goes on.

Dc will be tutored up to their eyeballs in the state schools by parents who couldn't afford the 20% increase but can still pay to 'other' their dc. I cannot see the benefit at all. Bursaries will be dropped by private schools and foreign dc will make up the numbers I suppose so they'll remain unaffected financially and the smaller schools that take the hit will close.

Forgot to add what of the many parents that only work to pay fees who will become sahp. what of the lost revenue in taxes there?