Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

20 percent VAT would be applied to fees but schools will also be able for the first time to recover VAT on certain costs, lowering their expenses. The net impact currently anticipated is a 15 percent increase in fees due to the policy change. Of course inflation will come on top.

But people will not be able to afford the raised fees and there will be a greater demand on state schools for places which the government will have to fund. Don’t forget that as well as paying school fees, parents are also paying taxes to cover the cost of school places which they are not taking up.

Some parents won't. Most will. And everybody pays taxes for education. Even people who don't have any children so that argument is very weak.

In the short term parents would do what they can to keep their children in their current school. Private school parents are like any other parents, they love their children and won’t want to see them disrupted. Any who can take the hit, will.

In the longer term, a 15% fee rise will stop families who can just afford it from choosing private. There will be a few less private schools and a few more students for state funded schools to absorb.

I don’t think it would end up as a total abolition of private schools. They’d just be marginally more exclusive, with no limits on how much they can offer as scholarships and no carrots to encourage them to share playing fields facilities etc. The tax take would be pretty marginal too.

I don’t think it would make much difference.

I predict the good state sixth forms are going to be mobbed, especially in London.

Another unknown factor is whether there would be a decrease in income tax from parents working less, and how significant that would be. I know quite a few women who only work (or work more hours) in order to pay for their children's education. Some would stop working if they stopped educating privately. Though the ones who stayed in private education might need to work more, of course.

It’d be a shame for the local state schools here to lose out on their current swimming and sport field use. There’s no alternative.Nearest council run swimming facilities are quite a distance. Currently I see the local pupils walking the short distance to do their swim lessons.
Playing fields in regular use too.

it’s a shame labour are doing this. I can’t vote for either Labour or Tory now.

If they go ahead with this, I wonder whether they will also start charging VAT on private health care? Morally, I can't see why you'd do one and not the other.

There is the argument that by increasing the number of students in state education they'd have to improve state education. There would be more parents too demanding it's improvement.

I do believe there's some merit in this argument because the people who demand more are those who expect and have benefitted from a higher standard of education.

But Labour have historically always funded education better anyway so it's very hard to determine causation in this one.

But as independent schools are businesses I have no problem with them charging VaT.

Especially as state schools don't get things such as business rate utilities and much of their income pays things like this.

I'd actually love to see some proper statistics re education and costs and funding. Rather than politically charged ones.

Demand for private school places will absolutely be impacted. I was just providing factual information not commentary.

A number of small preps are already closing. The drop will come initially from admissions as new parents will be reluctant to make the commitment, particularly for prep. Those with kids already in school will try to keep them in at least until a point where it's not too disruptive to switch but that will happen too.

I see Westminster going co-ed and Wimbledon Highschool changing their admission policy / timing as the deep concern even among the most sought after schools about how demand is going to be impacted.

The policy won't raise nearly as much money as Labour is suggesting and all that will happen is the parents displaced will use their wealth (and savings from leaving private schools) to buy into the best state schools.

It will be highly disruptive and not improve educational equity at all but it has widespread support amongst voters so its going to happen.

@itsgettingweird it won't improve standards in state education. Rich parents will just get into high quality state schools as they already do.

Also, I wish the rich using something automatically improved standards but emergency services on the NHS (which everyone has to use no matter how wealthy you are) are completely dire. It makes no difference to public services.

Yes, although the costings that I’ve seen just don’t seem to make financial sense. The govt will lose out on revenue that private schools generate, and have to pay more on the already squeezed state sector. It feels like the politics of envy to me.

Also, I predict a slight shift in the housing landscape; people using private schools didn’t previously care about catchment areas, so can live in cheaper areas, rural places etc. I think there will be an increase in people who can’t afford private anymore but will be moving to decent state school catchments. It could be a bit of a bun fight.

They won't. A lot more people have private health care than attend private school. The policies aren't about morals or even efficacy its about winning votes.

But people will not be able to afford the raised fees and there will be a greater demand on state schools for places which the government will have to fund

Tbf birth rates have plummeted & primary schools are going to see a big drop in rolls.

I think you’re right about that, although could be because of contextual offers as well.

I’d agree that parents will try to keep their child going in whatever education stage they are at, and then move to state for the next stage.

The part I don’t follow is this belief like itsgettingweird describes, that these new- to state- school parents will ‘demand more’ from state schools and this will improve educational standards for all. How on earth does that make sense. Teachers are already doing all they can, there’s nothing further that can be ‘demanded’.. All that will happen is house price increase in more desirable state schools, the parents for former private school pupils ( or who choose state as time goes by) will spend their money on tutoring and extracurriculars for their own children.

Short term private schools will become more elite than they are now if fees rise - more existing parents will need to apply for fee assistance so less opportunity for new pupils to come in and benefit from fee reductions. Longer term, I’d imagine the house prices will rise in areas with decent state schools, many parents on the border line of affording private will be pushed to state education. This could be a good thing, for those state schools as with higher income parents, paying for tutors/extra curricula activities and likely putting money into school events. Downside I see is that lower income families will be pushed into areas around the failing schools, with less ability to move to different schools, it’s likely the gap will increase between the worst performing and best performing schools.

Like lots of political policies as long as you are being seen to be doing something that is what matters even if the factual truth is inconvenient or shows up huge holes in the policy. I know of at least two families who have chosen state places for secondary for this coming September who would have gone private normally but they say a) the uncertainty around VAT is an issue and b) university admissions policies are also a consideration.

On top of the VAT issue is the declining primary school age population. A perfect storm for private schools who are not in the top echelons.

Good point @garfish about private medical.

No sympathy from me. One of our local private school’s outreach activity is offering Ancient Greek to one of the top performing state schools in the country, so I get eye rolly when it’s suggested that letting the great unwashed use their facilities is something we should be grateful for.

I do think a few more shouty parents would help drive education up the political agenda - if people can no longer afford to buy their way out of poor state provision, they’ll help drive change.

All that will happen is house price increase in more desirable state schools, the parents for former private school pupils ( or who choose state as time goes by) will spend their money on tutoring and extracurriculars for their own children.

This already happens though. And I know plenty who pay for prep & tutors

Exactly this. Schools will also do other things to reduce running costs like dropping and increase income in other areas such as lettings, mergers etc. Some will close though but plenty will remain and the increase might not be as big as expectdd due to other measures.

There is actually a decline in pupil numbers coming in many areas and this will have a big impact to as there is a smaller pool of pupils so some of thoseparents who only go private if they dont get into a particular state school are more likely to get that state.

This.

We need evidence based policy in this country. Desperately.

Evidence based policy, means basing decisions on what has been proven to work.

Countries with highly divisive educational systems and lack of equality of opportunity, have lower educational outcomes than those who fund and support all kids to fulfil their potential.

The better educated the population, the better the economy does, law & order is improved, health outcomes go up and general well-being is improved.

It will not create a huge burden on state schools.

Only around 7% of kids are in private schools. Many of those families will absorb the fee increase. Some will be on bursaries. Some will move to the state sector, it won't be massive in the great scheme of things.

amp.theguardian.com/education/2022/jul/14/pupil-numbers-in-england-set-to-shrink-by-near-1m-in-10-years

This.

More of the people with power to make change might actually begin to notice and care about the state of non-private education.

Decision makers might actually get involved.

Right now most teachers and parents are crying out for change to the curriculum and to education but nothing happens, no one listens, education secretaries change like the weather.

It is a terrible waste of young peoples' potential, drive, enthusiasm, intelligence and creativity.

It is also a terrible waste of the knowledge, expertise and potential of teachers.

How many government ministers, political influencers and decision makers are aware of, or affected by, the state of our non-private education system?

Are their children being failed? Or are they lucky enough to be benefitting from a (tax free) better education, better sports and arts opportunities and teachers who aren't on their knees whilst the rest of the children are clinging onto a crumbling system which is failing everyone involved?

Private schools aren't businesses (apart from the ones that aren't charities, obviously). You might want to argue that they behave like businesses in some ways (and that's probably truer of some than others), but they don't have shareholders and their 'profits' have to be reinvested into the school (not that they'll be making much profit at the moment). It's an important difference.

And if there's a good reason why VAT should be charged on private education but not private health, I've yet to hear it.