Independent schools and Labour government

[Turquoisesilver]

Has it actually been outlined what the proposals are? I believe there would effectively be a 20% fee increase, is that correct?

This has to be one of the more laughable suggestions I’ve read. So you’re proposing that the basic principles of VAT should apply to all businesses apart from private schools? The input/output VAT concept forms the entire basis of the legislation. You can’t just choose which bits of legislation you like and only apply those!

Yeah l am proposing that. The f government can do what they want. They make the rules.

Would these rules apply to other types of schools? For example a swim school or a music school would these come under these new rules as well?

No, because the government don’t fund those. They do fund state education though.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow our local music school is run by the borough council ? Or am I misunderstanding something? They even provide grants for instruments. We pay to attend?

I’m not sure what a public music school is. My dd had her lessons via her state school.

we have lessons in school but the music school we attend is a Saturday school but is open most days and run by the government. There are other schools like the royal school of music runs a Saturday school. Can't see how it's much different from a private school, you pay fees and attend. Or sports clubs etc. how will they differ.

Also excuse my ignorance but how does the government fund private schools? I thought they were funded by the fees. Thanks.

Anyway, it’s all immaterial. If the government wanted to exclude private academic schools they could pass a law to do so.

l hope they do.

They couldn't, and they won't. Hth.

It’s precisely this sort of question which shows how difficult a change in VAT legislation would be to implement. Would they exclude your example of a music school, but make a private school charge VAT on their music lessons for example? It’s really not as straightforward as some other posters seem to think. Legislative changes often lead to consequences which weren’t foreseen.

Speaking of music lessons, state schools are already able to make use of a scheme whereby parents are able to buy musical instruments from them free from VAT. Private schools are not able to do this, so those parents are already paying more VAT than state school parents.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow you can’t be forced to charge VAT but not reclaim it on your costs. It’s the essential point of a value-add regime.

If Labour wanted to do what you are describing they couldn’t do it via the VAT exemption removal. They’d have to implement some new form of tax or levy.

Exactly. And any new tax or levy would no doubt inadvertently end up catching things which weren’t foreseen. It’s really not as straightforward as a lot of people seem to think. It’s not a case of simply removing charitable status or charging VAT on fees.

also, the government doesn’t fund private schools either.

Defining private education as a matter of law to ensure it doesn’t ensnare things like private tuition in academics, music etc will be technically difficult but I suspect it will come into effect in September 2025 in the first budget after the general election.

I can't see how say a Saturday 11+ school, for example, is much different from private schools with regards to stating this in law.
You're paying for a tuition service in both instances.

VAT law already distinguishes between schools and crammers, so I expect they'd stick with those definitions

@Scaevola how do they distinguish them?

Ouch.

Your view is overly simplistic and horribly judgemental.

Plenty of young people, (in both state and private education ), with behavioural difficulties have loving, engaged parents who are doing a fantastic job under extremely difficult circumstances.

Other than the difficulties that they face wrt their children one of the other things that make their lives difficult is judgement from people like you.

Golly

Actually the Government do sponsor some children under the music and dance scheme to go to specialist music schools like Chethams or Purcell

Music and Dance Scheme: funding for students - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

@Voltar those schools are private schools that have government sponsored pupils not government sponsored schools. So I can't see why they'd be separate from any other independent school

Agreed, they are - but at the same time, they have a significant number of exceptionally talented pupils who are being funded by the government on a means tested basis for a specialist education which is hugely expensive given the nature of music and dance teaching

But my point was they would therefore not be exempt from the vat on fees. They are still interdependent school like any other. There are also lots of sponsored SEN dc.

All that will happen is unless the government is fully funding them, parents will find themselves further stretched to pay whatever they contribute or perhaps the government will pay the extra. A further strange move against putting vat on fees unless the government excludes specialist schools. But to pretend this attending these schools don't also benefit from small classes etc is a farce. So again, I'm failing to see this vat application benefitting anyone.

I agree - it is a mess

I predict the imminent growth of fees in advance schemes where parents pay upfront now thus avoiding any VAT on future school fees during the period covered.