Why is 6th form thought of more highly than attending FE college ?

[Summersunshinee]

I can never understand why if you say that you attend 6th form at school you are thought of more so than if you attended FE college.

I would feel that if anything it would be more impressive to attend FE college as you made the decision to go somewhere else and try something different /

Let's not stop at maths, let's get rid of the other subjects too.

Can't say I much use the sciences, any fool can read a book so that's English gone, I'll avoid going to France so no need for an MFL. Latin, that's a tough one as I quite enjoy showing off to my kids and translating plaques on buildings but probably not a core skill.

I'll keep maths and economics as they're useful in my job. And geography is vaguely relevant. But I'll only need to sit three GCSEs.

Except being well-educated is about far more than the GCSE grades and whether you use them in everyday life. And, as other PP have pointed out, many jobs do use them. Look at some of the most successful up and coming nations and they place a high value on education. I'm not going to advocate for a slide in academic standards and a race to the bottom.

Good news, I run finance courses for teenagers as part of making money skills more accessible. Our school covers it too and there's a wealth of free resources online. Studying maths does not preclude developing life skills elsewhere, indeed the logic and problem solving are highly complementary for finance.

I can't believe I'm getting dragged back in to this, but the maths discussion caught my eye.

Maths needs to be set in secondary.
Some students do well being lower in a higher set because it encourages them to push themselves.
Some students do better towards the top end of a lower set as it gives them confidence.
Some students need to go at a slower pace because it takes them longer to grasp and embed concepts.
Some children can zip along because when something is explained once they just get it.

Unnecessary maths
My DD2 is currently taking GCSE maths at Foundation level. Yes at grade 5 there are some hard things in there, like trigonometry. (But actually she finds trig easier than say negative numbers.)
Is trig 'unnecessary' for lower ability pupils? Well for many, but not all.
Suppose you want to cut down a tall tree, is it going to land on the houses over there? How do you know? You can't get to the top of the tree to measure it. So you stand a known distance away from it. You measure the angle from the ground to the top of the tree. Then you use trig to calculate the tree height. My 93 yo DF had to do this recently....
Most of the Foundation maths spec is day to day maths: comparing best buys, ratios (for scaling up recipes), conversions (eg pounds to euros), compound interest, understanding rules of operations, pie charts, frequency tables etc.

@pointythings don`t take this the wrong way but you are coming across as a bit of a snob.

Honest question: why?

• I respect vocational education and want it improved in the UK
• I support increasing functional options for young people, including functional maths, English and science
• I know and respect many young people who have gone to college and pursued vocational routes into careers

On the other hand what I don't have is a massive contempt and resentment for people whose talents are academic. I want everyone to be able to achieve their best. If that's snobbery then yes, I'm a snob and proud to be one.

When do you ever use Pythagoras theorem, algebra in everyday life never.
Bin stuff like that off. Teach more mental maths, how mortgages, credit cards etc work things that people actually use
I don't believe you really think this OP. Surely you are aware that trigonometry and alegbra are amongst the basic building blocks for the maths that those who work in pretty much any STEM field do indeed use every day? You can't honestly think it would be a good idea to restrict the entire nation's children to a level of numeracy that barely exceeds primary school level?
Or would you introduce some kind of discriminator for who gets the opportunity to learn some actual maths and hence have the chance of a career? Parental ability to pay maybe? Or how about a test taken at some arbitrary point that determines the path of a child's educational future from an early age? Maybe we could drop the school leaving age in fact. No need to burden most kids with all this book learning at all really. 🙄
One thing you are probably right about sadly is that things like how to budget and manage finances do need to be better taught in schools, but that should be covered by Personal Development - it's not maths. Dumbing down the maths curriculum to this level wouldn't level the playing field at all, it would just reduce development opportunities for many pupils. And if we have large numbers of people who have not learned the numerical skills needed to be capable of basic money management then that is a failure of the primary curriculum, and that is where it needs to be addressed, not by reducing what is on offer at secondary schools.

Personal Development - that's what it was called and DC did do finances in PD at secondary

DC2 did a thing called Finance which counted as half a GCSE and included all that basic stuff. It wasn't on the 1-9 grade scale, it was in old money and he got an A. And didn't do a lick of revision for it.

My nephew suddenly took a more positive view of maths when I told him that I had to calculate wind variations for my flying hobby and had to use a fair bit of maths for that. You couldn’t rely on a computer in case of power failure and had to use a circular ruler to get accurate ikforatmijn as well as understand how wind and vectors changed a heading.

You also had to be able to identify if you were wildly out and possibly mid-entered data if you were using a flight planner as otherwise you might head into airspace above a nuclear power station (there is one near Lydd airfield) and get shot down. Maths can literally keep you alive. And this is me as an English Lit grad.

I would remove drama and music from the curriculum also.

These aren't subject worthy in my view.

They are hobbies or pastimes.

More like an after school thing.

I find your posts almost incomprehensible (I'd say AI driven but that's putting a sleight on ChatGPT given the lack of logic).

You argue for more vocational subjects but not music and drama? So not useful for aspiring actors or musicians? You're contradicting your own argument.

I don't think I've ever found a MN thread so frustrating. Which I suspect is the only aim.

Yep, let's cut the arts even further. Even though they bring in millions for the economy every year. And let's hold back our brightest so that everyone can level down. You make Michael Gove look good.

We had the music and drama argument pages ago and it was quite upsetting for me as the subjects being offered have literally been lifesaving for my children so I won't engage further.

@Summersunshinee you better contact the hugely popular and over subscribed Brit School and tell them you are closing them down.
Shame. It’s a good school with 100% of its students actually wanting to be there because it’s so specialist no child ends up there by default - only choice.

I think the OP would like to produce a nation which shuffles along chanting "Soma, soma" as basically we shouldn't be teaching anything that might be intellectually stretching or stimulating it seems.
Though I'd better not reference great literature I suppose. Reading. Just a hobby really.

@MrsAvocet yes and I think we would all have our vocational life role assigned to us at age 12 in one of those ceremonies like in dystopia novels like The Giver or Divergent - which of course no one will have been allowed to read. Cos books are a hobby.

I don't think OP read my Harrison Bergeron link either.

Literature = knowledge. Knowledge = power.

same with the school my dd attended. It's one of 10 in the country funded like it (4 for dance the rest for music)

@Comefromaway Tell me your story I wouldn't like to think i was upsetting anyone.

Do they only teach drama/music at the brit school or do they cover a standard curriculum too ?

@Summersunshinee we have this amazing thing called 'Google' which lets you look up the Brit School and find out for yourself. It's wonderful, you should try it.

I have looked it up.

No need for sarcasm

There's always a need for sarcasm. It's like breathable air. And ice cream.

@Summersunshinee the Brit School has a website. You can look it up.
But in simple terms students don’t start until age 14 (Year 10) and study the standard GCSE’s (English, Maths, Science plus a few more etc) while specialising in different streams doing theatre, dance, music or other art subjects connected to the entertainment industry. I know children who have/are studying illustration as their specialist stream, another was technology based special effects.
After GCSEs they can choose to stay for “6th Form” which will be various qualifications. I am not 100% sure if they offer A-Levels alongside.
There are only a couple of 14+ schools like Brit (Performing and Visual Art) in England but there are several UTCs (University Technology Colleges) which are similar but focus on STEM subjects including the vocational ones you seem to love.
They also have to study English,Maths and Science at GCSE alongside their vocational choice.

@Needmorelego Yes I have had a look at the website now.

What`s wrong with stopping singing and dancing around and picking up some tools or pots & pans instead ?