Why is 6th form thought of more highly than attending FE college ?

[Summersunshinee]

I can never understand why if you say that you attend 6th form at school you are thought of more so than if you attended FE college.

I would feel that if anything it would be more impressive to attend FE college as you made the decision to go somewhere else and try something different /

@flurbubbly I agree too. Children develop at different rates, and they should have options to change their schooling according to how they're developing. IMO this should also mean a return to really funding post 18 education - that would mean funded vocational training for adults as well as funded A levels/GCSEs for adult returners to learning. It's all about investing in people, which the UK is very bad at.

Surely that is what apprenticeships are for! There is no age limit on apprenticeships and when ds applied for a CS apprenticeship he was up against a 50 year old. DS himself was 24 when he did his original apprenticeship and 26 when he started his degree apprenticeship. Functional skills are funded by the government if the apprentice does not have adequate maths , english and ict passes

@pointythings Of course there are right and wrong answers in non science or maths based subjects.

It’s changed now.

I look for BTECs when I hire for data roles because the ones geared around computer science because they tend to know how to code.

@Summersunshinee there are, but there are levels of right answers. That's what makes it work. Look at Mark schemes for English Lit or History and you'll see what I mean.

Basic factually correct answer gets you some of the marks, and you pass with a 4. Add layers of analysis, relevant quotes and arguments and you get the amount of marks that put you into 7+ territory. That's why mixed ability works here. In maths you get some marks for working out, but the range is much narrower, and the difference in the material you need to understand is huge. Look at what's in Foundation vs Higher maths and you'll see how you can't teach both of those in the same class without someone losing out.

I actually disagree that mixed ability classes in Maths and Science would work as the smarter students could be a positive influence on those less clever.

Also if we were to take some of the more unnecessary elements of maths i have highlighted earlier in this thread then i think it would work.

I actually disagree that mixed ability classes in Maths and Science would work as the smarter students could be a positive influence on those less clever.
Someone capable of higher maths should not be used as a free TA for someone who struggles with fractions and percentages. Students who struggle with maths should be able to take functional maths. Able students should be able to work to their potential. You're still advocating dragging people down.

Also if we were to take some of the more unnecessary elements of maths i have highlighted earlier in this thread then i think it would work.
It's been explained to you that those elements are not at all unnecessary and do in fact have real world applications. Furthermore, able students who want to go to university and move into STEM should not have their wings clipped because of the politics of envy.

Your belief in the advancement of mediocrity is almost religious.

@Summersunshinee we had 3 ability sets for maths at my school (this was back in the 90s). Top, middle and lower.
I was in middle. I was one of the top performers in the middle set (it was several different classes). I scored something like 98% in one exam. I was so unbelievably proud of that. My teachers were proud. I got a round of applause from my classmates l.
Had I been in the top set though I would have been average or struggling because the top set did more complicated work. Had it been a mixed ability class I probably would have been invisible among those really smart ones and the ones who needed extra help.
Mixed ability is definitely better for maths.

Your belief in the advancement of mediocrity is almost religious.

Credit to you for taking the time to post a reasoned reply. I started an answer and decided it wasn't worth the effort!

Arguing that maths, of all things, should be taught in mixed ability classes at secondary is ludicrous. For kids at both ends of the ability scale.

@Summersunshinee also those that simply aren’t good at maths don’t need “encouragement “ from the more able students. Some will simply not understand maths or be good at it. They could be the most enthusiastic maths student in the world but if they don’t “get it” they don’t get it. No encouragement will change that.

@Needmorelego are you sure you didn't forget the word 'not' in that last line? Because it doesn't feel logical.

@pointythings ooops yes.
Well spotted.
I meant to say mixed ability is definitely NOT best in maths
🙂

@Needmorelego I was going to say...

When my DD1 was doing GCSEs, we had a friend of hers basically weekly board with us because her parents had had to move out of area - in Yr11. So she stayed with us so she could stay at school and finish her GCSEs. Nobody in that family had ever passed a single one.

She wanted to join the RAF so needed a 4 in maths. She worked, so, so, so hard and in the end the school put her in for Higher because they rated her chance of getting a 5 higher there than in Foundation. She was in middle set, towards the top end. Being there made her feel she could do it. And she did. She got the 5 and a solid 8 good GCSEs.

Putting her in a mixed ability set with my top set DD (and with an 8 she was middle of the top set!) she would have been faced with material she couldn't access, been utterly discouraged, given up and not got the passing grade.

It really is that simple - setting for maths and science works because it gives everyone appropriate teaching.

As my grandmother who left school aged 12 said ‘if everyone liked the same thing the queues would be horrendous’.

She was the wisest person I have ever known.

College vs Sixth form didn’t exist for her.

She also said ‘you cut your cloth according to your coat’ - that ‘coat’ having been social status and at least that has changed. Now young people can choose based on where their strengths lie. The name or type of institution is immaterial. It is just amazing they have these opportunities that not too long ago some generations had no choice. My father was offered a grammar place but that meant he had to stay on at school to 16 and his parents had to buy a blazer which they couldn’t afford. He stayed at school rather than went to the grammar and left at 14.

@PettsWoodParadise I agree with you so much. We need more choice, not less choice. Our young people deserve the opportunity to discover their talents and develop them - whatever those talents are.

@pointythings Advancement of mediocrity ? so making sure everyone achieves is a bad thing ?

@Needmorelego Dam for a moment i thought you agreed with me lol

so making sure everyone achieves is a bad thing ?

No, it's a good thing. But it isn't what you are advocating. Everything you propose is about making those who are academic achieve less than their potential.

I have not said that.

When do you ever use Pythagoras theorem, algebra in everyday life never.

Bin stuff like that off. Teach more mental maths, how mortgages, credit cards etc work things that people actually use.

You absolutely have said that.

You advocate for mixed ability maths teaching, which will prevent the highly able from achieving their best and will reduce the achievement of those for whom functional maths would be best.

You suggest removing Pythagoras from the curriculum - the ignorance of this suggestion is simply astounding as it is used by builders, surveyors, cartographers, road builders - all people whose work is absolutely key to maintaining our daily lives.

You suggest removing algebra, which scientist rely on - the same scientists who develop the innovations that make our lives better. You do not value research, innovation or creativity at all. We live in a world where all of those things require skills and study.

I say it again: you believe in keeping academic young people down. Your proposals will hinder the achievements of those who need the best vocational teaching. I am so glad you are not in charge of education policy in the UK.

@pointythings If I were in charge of education in the UK we would become the greatest nation on earth.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Er, no.

@pointythings don`t take this the wrong way but you are coming across as a bit of a snob.

Great post.

All maths is necessary. What are you talking about?

My Dc were taught about finance issues in their form class, cant remember what the lesson was called but it was along with health etc