Epsom College tragedy

[Bambala]

I was horrified to read the story about the headteacher and family dying this morning, this poor family and I can't stop thinking about how the children at school must feel learning about this tragedy. I am sure the staff there are being brilliant at supporting them. I remember hearing that my old headteacher had died after I left school and even then being really shocked and upset.

The Guardian article says a lot about Emma Pattison but very little - only his job in fact, about the Father. And yes, I would read a lot into that.

I was a housemasters wife. Nowadays they need to be dbs checked.

Yesterdays thread got removed because it derailed with racism when a poster commented on what the husband looked like. Or at least I'm assuming that's the reason. It was getting pretty heated when I was last on there just after midnight

I agree, if it what I'm think actually happened

i assume there is more information out there on her for the media to get hold of.

Both DH and I are in the same profession but he is at a higher level and works in an area where you write articles, present seminars etc, whereas I am much in the background working on spreadsheets. If you were to Google either of us, his name would come up quite a lot but mine wouldn’t

@Minteraye - well, suicidal people do not typically have care of children for obvious reasons of safety. That's a question that preoccupies family courts across the land about whether people can see their kids.

Which is why if someone has serious depression and expresses suicidal thoughts it should be reported. It's not a trifling domestic issue.

A state school is less likely to be able to afford to employ an armourer or a range master. Or have the space and budget to construct the required facilities. If they could afford it, I don't see why they shouldn't. Gordon Brown was in favour of extending CCF in state schools.

I am very delightful

They also usually have combined cadet force

why do you say suicidal people don't have care of children? A very small proportion who are known to social services, family courts and other agencies might not have care of their children but it's be very unrealistic to think suicidal people don't have care of children.

Suicidal doesn't immediately equate to acting on the urge or having the urge to harm others and carry out harm to children.

Perhaps I've misunderstood what your point.

Well with all its money and the accolade of being one the leading public schools in the country, as well the armourer/range master or other responsible persons, it makes you wonder how on earth someone appears to have got hold of one the school's "secure" firearms..

@taperjogger I was around a safeguarding enquiry where women were offering each other mutual support. The mum left her dc at an organised event with the suicidal friend as their nominal adult. It triggered an investigation.

Can't explain further.

No, no, and no again. Guns are not toys. They should not be ‘entertainment’. Children should not be firing them for fun, regardless of how ‘classy’ the establishment. I’m all for extreme sports, I’m not a boring person, but guns are something else entirely - they hold zero purpose but to kill something, whether that’s an animal or another human. Nobody should own a gun or gun licence for mere ‘enjoyment’.

of course - thank you for sharing. must have been other known risk factors and investigation threshold met/ necessary.

So are you also against archery as a sport?

How many archery deaths have there been in the U.K. versus gun in the last year?

@taperjogger - let me put it more bluntly.

Would you, as a parent, leave your children in the care of someone who had suicidal feelings?

This is question the authorities would ask you. It is a question that has to be addressed for the safety of children. Feeling suicidal is not some sort of thing you turn on and off.

How many archery deaths have there been in the U.K. versus gun in the last year?
But what about deaths by legally held target rifle? They're pretty unwieldy things.

Sorry I think we are talking at cross purposes as I’m not sure what this has to do with my original post.

Although incidentally there will be parents up and down the land experiencing suicidal thoughts and with children in their care.

’Suicidal people’ aren’t a separate category of people, anyone can become depressed (and likewise recover). Suicidal ideation is also a very common symptom of even mild depression and does not mean that someone will commit suicide or harm anyone.

I don’t think you understand how extraordinarily common it is.

Well, I'll just say that suicidal people are, on balance, dangerous to others, for obvious reasons. I do understand that mild depression can engage some of these thoughts, but with severe depression, the risk can be sufficient that you may not see your children or you have to be supervised. Because the risk can be significant.

Says the person that has come back to argue......I bet you're a joy to live with and any argument is not your fault, it's all because the other person was daring to argue with you.

Grow up, you sound ridiculous.

Are you going to argue back again?

But that isn’t what happens – people just get on with it and hopefully seek support from their GP and/or friends and family. They don’t then have their kids taken from them, and it’s not good to spread that sort of misinformation as it could discourage someone who needs it from seeking support from a GP.

People with serious mental illness are not always able to supervise their children. That's a little different from people with the very common passing suicidal thoughts many many people have.

Yep. Even in the cases of fairly severe issues, SS are not in the habit of removing children from their parents unless absolutely necessary. I’ve seen this go the other way tbh, where someone who is not really capable for looking after their kids adequately (on a profound neurological level) has been charged with looking after dependents for way longer than they should have been, because this is seen as the ideal.

This is not the case - someone who is suicidal is NOT by definition a danger to anyone else.
Please don’t stigmatise suicidal thoughts and suicide in this way.

Well, I'll just say that suicidal people are, on balance, dangerous to others, for obvious reasons.

This is such bollocks! The vast, vast majority of suicidal people are not any risk to others at all.

There will be extreme cases where depression simultaneously makes a parent unable to care for the child and makes the parent at risk of suicide. But to try to pretend that people who have suicidal thoughts are particularly likely to harm their children is ridiculous.

Murderous men who are likely to kill their partners, on the other hand, are most definitely a risk to children. Suicide for them is (IMO) a way of escaping the consequences of murdering their wives and children.