Steiner/Waldorf Schools - requesting info from those in the know...

[Rantmum]

...anyone know anything about the Steiner/Waldorf school system, pros and cons (particularly with reference to early years/primary education, but any info is good!. Had not really given them too much consideration but have recently moved and met several mothers who speak highly of the their approach.

(I do know kings langley and michael hall though......I will say no more but I WOULDN'T send my kids to either)

Ok- I understand... my sentiments entirely...

Michael hall seems like some big private public school but with reincarnation-lite as and extra.....

Filly- one reason why wouldn't you?- please?

oh agree-ditto most of them really-

and jesus the internal politics at kings langley...

( SHUT UP Filly)

I don't disagree with much of this thread really. I suppose its the highly organised cult thing that is making my PMSL a bit. I think they would LOVE to be a highly organised cult thing, but like I say, they are more like the Life of Brian...

well like I say, I agree with a lot of this thread

I don't think that there is some secret masonic organisation overseeing anything, its more half a dozen elderly grandparents with a penchant for beeswax and saying things in an odd way.

But there is no disputing that some schools are very orthodox and don't value working with the parents.

I want a lot of involvement in my kids educations, probably a lot more than most parents do. I am home-educating after all.

I absolutely could not work with a very large proportion of Steiner teachers.

There are, however, some that I know I could work with, who will actually listen to me, and if I needed to send my kids to school, I would consider such a school. (do bear in mind also that we have a very very poor choice of both state and private schools locally, and there are absolutely NO other places which, say don't push reading at 4)

The school our kids were is attatched to a camphill community- obviously anthroposophical too. They talked about mixing with outsiders - in a cult like way- and whether people were "on the path".

I can see how this is different from the Michael Hall's and King's Langleys- but ultimately- the spiritual science stuff is central to the teacher training and the philosophy of all Steiner schools- and I really don't think one can get away from that- however hard lush and stripey insist it's not that relevant- it's central to the whole Steiner system.
I still can't quite make out actually- whether they embrace it all - or whether they say it doesn't touch on their kids schooling; if it's the latter - then I think they're not AWARE of it touching.

I tend to think that you may feel like me- that if there were a school that taught all the things like music, art, craft, gardening, the great stories of myth and history, botany etc, etc- as we thought we were getting- we'd jump at it.
It certainly isn't a steiner school.

The word " orthodox" is quite interesting- because one of the things that I found so irritatingly prescriptive - was the fact that there's absolutely no leeway atall- the same bloody stuff- year in year out- paintings the same, felt animals the same, same myths same botany plants- same crusty old anthro hauled in to do her crusty old experiments.....ARE there any unorthodox steiner schools who say- this term we're doing the aztecs instead of Persia and Babylon . But this wouldn't fit with steiner's overview of man's place in the great mystery of life of course, and the past life stuff.

Those watery nothing wet on wet paintings they do- I wanted to remember the reason why they can't do lines- it's because of their past life- and to help the children's souls feel at home when they come to this world from the spirit world.

"In painting, the line is a lie; the line is always part of the memory of life before birth. If we are to paint with a consciousness that extends across into the world of spirit, we must paint what comes out of the colour."

" when the soul arrives on earth in order to enter its body, it has come down from spirit-soul worlds in which there are no spatial forms. Thus the soul knows spatial forms only after its bodily experience, only while the after effects of space still linger on "

and here's the eurythmy one I was loking for before

"In a certain sense, we take from earthly life only the physical medium, the actual human being who is the tool or instrument for eurythmy.
But we allow this human being to make manifest what we study inwardly, what is already prepared in us as a result of previous lives; we transfer this to our limbs, which are the part of us where life after death is being shaped in advance.
Eurythmy shapes and moves the human organism in a way that furnishes direct external proof of our participation in the supersensible world. In having people do eurythmy, we link them directly to the supersensible world.?
"

northern, your quotes to do with the colour paintings -
the anthro lot may well fully understand and believe in all that you have quoted, but when it is related in the classroom wet on wet colour experimentation has reasons and benefits to suit the child at that age; the curriculum teaches children about colour, about colours that can demonstrate feeling and reflect in nature and how colour can blend and change. for a young child with a wonderful imagination to have the freedom and guidance to explore and feel colours and give meaning to colour, the benefits are great.
what I am trying to say (not very well..)is that the colour wet on wet thing that people often bring up when picking the school to peices is the beggining of a long and carefully planned process in the curriculum to get the children to not just draw, or paint, but to experience, and grow from that experience (instead of simply drawing/painting in order to do a nice picture and get a bit better with practice)
kids believe in magic -it's part of what makes them kids, at steiner they try to keep the imagination ignited for as long as possible so that they can be free to play and grow and experience and learn. I can see how it is easy to focus on these wet on wet rainbow paintings but they are a small part of a very detailed curriculum that really does suit a young child.

in the older classes, the presentation of the work produced is so very impressive, and the artwork produced by the kids old and young is fantastic, but it isn't just about art, it is so evident that the kids are really experiencing what they are learning and they seem to know about stuff on deeper levels because of this. (massive generlisation maybe but this is absolutely what I have witnessed.)

imo, if this schooling is being made possible because the hardcore posse at the top are passionate enough about what they believe to make it happen, then great, I thank them -I don't want to join them but I am happy that they are doing it.

(much like a friend of mine who sends her dd to a convent, she is not religeous but she believe that the nuns are providing the best possible education for her dd.. this doesn't mean she wants her dd to be a nun, or even religious, the school just floats-her-boat, and although I don't share her opinions, I don't feel the need to go onto MN and claim the convent to be evil on the basis that the people at the top believe in some very strange ideas !)

(agree filly re. life of brian!)

it's a shame about your experience northern, you say you would like the steiner curriculum minus the anthro -it seems that you can get that expeience after all. -just perhaps not at your school

or is it a mindset thing....I wonder...

what a huge long and boring post -if you made it to the bottom, well done, I now expect that this will be pulled apart so I shall probably bow out now, I will keep a close eye to see if we reach a conclusion..

oh and the eurithmy thing -has an awful lot to do with other things, physical growth and development and spacial awareness and dance and expression and movement and hand-eye coordination, creativeness, meditation and ...... on and on and on...
there are vast benefits for cildren to practice eurithmy at school.

what I don't understand is what you think this hidden agenda is? these people believe in stuff they have managed to create a pretty wholesome and wonderful curriculum and school experience.

what on earth is so awful? what are they trying to gain? you all make it sound so dark and spooky! maybe we should bring in MI5...
ok I'm owff now.

There actually ARE breakaway schools, yes

there are schools that use the curriculum but have little anthroposophical involvement, for whatever reason

there are also geniune rogue schools, where for example there is a headteacher and actual contracts of employment and so forth. The feel of these schools tends to be very different. There is at least one of these in the UK-in Stroud, I think.

looks like we have a conclusion!

I believe the one in Hereford is in the process of getting State funding/Academy status, so will presumably be rather less Anthro?

IME, they are all so very different in feel and in the way they are run that its hard to make blanket statements. The one I am involved with is not too bad - it has changed (improved) since my time there.

Am really enjoying this thread. Please, keep going!

My two DSs had a great time at their local Steiner. The life of Riley, reallly. DS2 (aged 7) was utterly distraught when we told him he was moving: "you're torturing me, you're taking me away from my true family, you just want me to be unhappy..." DS1 (11) has reached his own conclusions and has asked to move to a secondary school - we've respected that and he's moving in the summer.

My interest in this whole debate is about what Steiner meant for ME as a SAHM. I can honestly say I gave my life to that school for six years and now, I resent it. I did what I thought best, but it does now feel as though I was part of a cult and I'm SO relieved to be out...

I am just as happy for the sceptics to stay away from Steiner or remove their kids - it just makes those of us who are a bit more easy going and take the good with the bad that much more relaxed.

I look at it the same way as my Catholic Education - the upside was that I got the results I needed to go to Uni and the downside was that I was forced to attend Mass three times a week, have hymn singing classes twice a week, religion classes twice a week, be judged because I came from a broken home and generally left with a pile of Catholic Guilt - and I am not even Catholic! I would much rather my children be introduced to the idea of reincarnation than believe that good dead people float about on the clouds above us and bad dead people burn in the ground below us.

I liken it to people asking me for the number of my Naturopath, after years of conventional medicine being unable to help them or their kids with Ezcema or Asthma or Fertility or whatever. Now I give the number with the warning that if they are sceptical and have no faith in iridology or no intention of taking herbs and vitamin and mineral supplements or of changing their diet then they shouldn't waste everyones time.

I'm not sure equate the wet wishy paintings just with keeping the magic alive as you say thenew- that - of course- is exactly what th schools say- keeping the magic ,wonder and reverence. Not that there's anything wrong with that- you can keep all those things without painting orange water for two to three years as a reminder to their soul' past life . Sorry- just not creative freedom in my book.
Higher up the school- I do agree that the wax block work is good- and I really wish that state school did more art like this instead of crappy photo copies- I really do- I think it's a big, misguided error of the state system that they don't rate art for young children enough.
But the painting work- yes- it's very skilled and competent for school children- but it's all COPIED from a teacher-all nearly the same- and this is not creative freedom. There's something to be said in that you can learn through copying- and the craft aspect is great.

Gosh- it's strange having my psyche dismantled by you thenew- I really wonder if you've understood the stuff I've been talking about.

"imo, if this schooling is being made possible because the hardcore posse at the top are passionate enough about what they believe to make it happen, then great"

You see- what I , and the other dissenters on this thread- are trying to make clear- is that it's not great with most people. To be pedaled arty, wholesome education by the Steiner apologists who believe parents aren't important in their sacred task to reincarnate our kids.
Also- I actually think it's more than "a shame" to have been through what my kids have been through- it's traumatic to move schools, start again- and be behind in all your work- very very hard. It's not something to be complacently belittled.Although - I'm glad , of course, that your experience is so wonderful. I do know people who've come through the Steiner system, and done quite well.

The Acorn school is a rogue one- he says he's more Steiner that Steiner- but they don't call themselves a Steiner school- think that's right- anyone know it?

"I liken it to people asking me for the number of my Naturopath, after years of conventional medicine being unable to help them or their kids with Ezcema or Asthma or Fertility or whatever. Now I give the number with the warning that if they are sceptical and have no faith in iridology or no intention of taking herbs and vitamin and mineral supplements or of changing their diet then they shouldn't waste everyones time."

YES! Absolutely! 100% Agree.
Now, how do we get such a clear ststement of the NEED FOR FAITH in the largely unquantifiable onto the brochures for those making an initial enquiry? Several posters have claimed "their" school isn't too Anthro. Anyone interested in an attempt to compile a list rating the degree to which any given school is full-bloodied Anthro or less so?
I'm suggesting this in light of Rantmums' original enquiry.
Assuming Rantmum is still watching this list, would you be interested in reading such information, assuming it were a consensus between fans and the disaffected?
Davy

Janni- as soon as we'd left- we all heaved a sigh, talked to other people who had left- and came to the same conclusion- cult.

The encouragement to join in the first place- we were fished in what I now see as a sort of evangelical way- the way there isn't much time to carry on with your usual life- although we did- but fitted it around Steiner Planet- it was difficult!

The way they say- "Well- if you mix with outsiders"- (was said to us)

The absolute conviction that they are right and you are wrong.

The fact that it is hard to go back to the real world for your kids, because the learning patterns are so different.

But - for me , at any rate, the main one is the fact that the curriculum isn't reached by consensual discussion- it's all based on the physcotic ramblings of a lunatic- well- a kindly , thoughtful- flashes of lucidity- but basically mad. Well- that all spells CULT to me.

In a way- the refusal of some people on this thread to accept the enormity of the real agenda of Steiner education confirms it in my view.

I agree- certainly it would be very useful for schools to declare their "rogueness".

There could be a scale from one to ten from belief in gnomes and blond hair making you more intelligent, to thinking there must be something, but we're not quite sure- but we like the songs and the candles.

Also- what about a scale of fulfillment, life after Steiner?- I've always found it diffcult to investgate this. Surely, that's what it's all about- children's start in life. Steiner school harp on about this a lot- but I'm not sure it does give them this wonderful beginning- a few people on this thread have mentioned how it actually damaged them.

"it just makes those of us who are a bit more easy going and take the good with the bad that much more relaxed."

I don't know aussie- but I just feel my kids education is more important to me than that kind of relaxed, insouciant attitude- but of course it fits in so well with the whole Steiner ethos- they like it-' cos they can then get on with their job without parents asking questions. There were a lot of those flakey, crystal, fairy like new age people at the school we were involved with. I can see the attraction of relaxed- it's when it moves to lack of concern etc.

Aussiesim - you said: 'I liken it to people asking me for the number of my Naturopath, after years of conventional medicine being unable to help them or their kids with Ezcema or Asthma or Fertility or whatever. Now I give the number with the warning that if they are sceptical and have no faith in iridology or no intention of taking herbs and vitamin and mineral supplements or of changing their diet then they shouldn't waste everyones time".

During my time in steiner land we were strongly encouraged to seek certain alternative practitioners who disregard the original diagnosis as it doesn't fit in with the ethos of the school - a true steiner child doesn't get asthma or eczema.

Whether you are in or out of the steiner system - it centres around trust aswell as faith.
IF you choose to walk away from the school, you will almost certainly be shunned from the community. It is based on fear of the modern world. It never says this explicitly, it cleverly inverts it with the strong encouragement of embracing the imaginary and natural world. Before you you know it anyone that you use to know from the modern world is seen as someone to pity, an inferior spiritual being - yes when I contracted 'steinercitis' I truly believed I had found the holy grail of education, I was a horrible intense bore who would talk of nothing else.

Because you are encouraged to only mix with other steiner families, slowly your old world and your old friends have no place in your new life. Normal people have an annoying habit of making references to last nights tv (shriek) or offering your child a packet of crisps (gasp). Before you know it your child will be turning their back on dusty gnomes and sprouting seeds and pollute the school with the modern world - the outside world.

There is a common greeting between families around here - after the first meeting and exchanging names, the next question is 'And which school do your children go to?'

Re painting at a steiner school:

Audrey E. Mc Allen's book, "Sleep: An Unobserved Element in Education". p 40-43, writes:
"In this first exercise...only, I ask the pupil what color he would choose for the star, so that the vermilion red is held back from the star and kept in balance. Most children immediately say - yellow- and therein lies the
problem. Yellow is the colour which should not be confined, it needs to dissolve and fly away. . . . I have allowed the pupil to paint-in the star with yellow. . . . I then ask my pupil if he likes the effect. If the answer is yes, I make no comment. We repeat the exercise at the next lesson, asking which colour the star should be.
When he gives the answer that he does not like the effect, we discuss the relationship between the two colours, for example, the yellow makes the vermilion hot. Then comes the question, how shall we cool the vermilion red? There are some children who insist on the yellow,
others will suggest different colours, and then realise they are not satisfactory. We can now tell them to paint the star in the pale peach-blossom-like magenta. This always brings great satisfaction. I have learned to dwell on this first combination for several weeks and then to proceed with the sequence in their order, telling the pupil
which colours to use."

easeonline I don't think it is possible to do a mn survey of steiner schools as, I imagine, that very few steiner prents need an online community as they have such a wonderful real-life one

northern said - "But - for me , at any rate, the main one is the fact that the curriculum isn't reached by consensual discussion- it's all based on the physcotic ramblings of a lunatic- well- a kindly , thoughtful- flashes of lucidity- but basically mad. Well- that all spells CULT to me.
In a way- the refusal of some people on this thread to accept the enormity of the real agenda of Steiner education confirms it in my view. " (northern)

if that's what you want to think then that's fine by me, if it makes you feel better! (but you are wrong)

"cos they can then get on with their job without parents asking questions."
northern what is "their job' exactly? are you saying they are trying to get the kids to join this secret cult thing you keep going on about? imo, their "job" is to facilitate this wonderful curriculum, and ime they do a bloody good job at it.

(barking) "During my time in steiner land we were strongly encouraged to seek certain alternative practitioners who disregard the original diagnosis as it doesn't fit in with the ethos of the school - a true steiner child doesn't get asthma or eczema."

-a steiner teacher I know has asthma so how does that one work? ...come to think of it, her family often eat crisps, and junk food, they watch crap on the tv, and at one point she had kids in steiner and state school, does that mean she should have made sure her children didn't mix with eachother?!

"There is a common greeting between families around here - after the first meeting and exchanging names, the next question is 'And which school do your children go to?' "

same as in any community I think you will find! it is more often to do with snobbery though, rather than different lifestyle choices.

I want to be fully involved in my kids schooling, I want to go through it with them. I chose to have kids and I choose to devote myself to their young lives, I can't ever imagine feeling like I have been suckered into something against my will or without my knowledge when it comes to my kids, at state school I wouldn't be granted the same relationship with the school, as it is not the ethos.
but that is my choice and a choice that parents knowingly make when sending to steiner- you have to prove it to the school before you are allowed in!

northern, it may have been very different for you, please don't think I was belittling your experience by calling it 'a shame' I don't discredit what you say, I just have a very polarised opinion to you and your answer to that is that I am obviously 'unaware of the cult thingy'. which makes it difficult to listen to you iyswim