Naughty, disruptive boys

[DuglyFugly]

Is it common to have so many very disruptive, naughty boys who show off about how brilliant / genius / superior they are while being incredibly puerile, disruptive and out of control? I have a ds and a dd. Before anyone accuses me, ds is 11 and has always been a bit quiet as is dd. They both focus and do their best in the classroom but are not the super stars.
in my dd's year 4 class the boys are mean, rude, disruptive, some of them are very academic and others not much. The common theme is that so many are so full of themselves and so very silly. Is this common in classrooms? Is it different at private school? Not that we could afford it but I'm so fed up with these kids disrupting the learning for well behaved kids. I am not talking about SEN, just general lack of respect, being spoilt at home and being very disruptive.

Those of you trotting out statistics, like that clinched the argument: stats also show rich kids do better at school than poor ones. Does that mean they’re more intelligent? Of course not.

I think its much subtler than that...there's a bit of research from the 60's where mothers (yeah I know) were given a strange baby to hold and interract with and were "told" its gender. Babies who were labelled as "boys" were called "strong" "feisty" and "active" and were praised and allowed/encouraged to move. Girls were called "restless" "fidgetty" even naughty and attempts were made to soothe them and get them to "settle down" As far as I recall, it was actually a double blind so the people handing over the babies to the test adults weren't told themselves the actual gender of the baby they were handing over. I think its not seen as excusing but as pointing out one of the facts of gender.....that you can't expect the same behaviours from a boy that you can from a girl....which translates into "boys are troublemakers; girls are victims."

@noblegiraffe Since you asked, this is what I think explains the stats around exclusions. I object to your implication that being naughty at school means you’re on track for prison because that’s obviously absurd, but leaving that aside:

Boys are slower on average to speak than girls. This leads to them communicating through behaviour. Said behaviour gets quickly labelled “disruptive”. It gets given a lot of negative reinforcement through attention. Boy learns that behaving badly will lead to attention (which children tend to want, even if it’s bad). Said behaviour tends to be physical, which is more socially unacceptable than verbal disruption. Repeatedly calling someone a “bitch” won’t get you suspended; punching someone will. Add to that society’s dislike of boys (as evidenced by the adjectives used to describe boys on this thread) and you’re most of the way to explaining it.

Since you’re fond of prison stats, more black men are incarcerated per head of population than white men. Does that mean they behave worse or could there be something else going on?

But that's because there's the obvious alternative explanation that wealth buys access to resources that aid in education.

So I'm interested in your alternative explanation as to why males are more likely to be suspended, expelled, end up in alternative provision or prison than anything to do with their behaviour.

Cross-post

Repeatedly calling someone a “bitch” won’t get you suspended; punching someone will.

Right, so it is their behaviour that leads to their being sanctioned.

Since you’re fond of prison stats, more black men are incarcerated per head of population than white men. Does that mean they behave worse or could there be something else going on?

Clearly racism is a massive issue in policing.

It seems that you are suggesting that there is sexism involved in determining whether a girl who calls someone a bitch should be suspended compared to a boy who repeatedly punches someone.

Do you think that verbal assault should be treated the same as physical assault? That it's sexism that determines one more serious than the other, because one is more likely to be perpetrated by males?

I think it’s more that schools tolerate one form of behaviour more than another. Both are equally detrimental to other children learning, and are equally disruptive, hence my contention (and my experience) that boys and girls are equally disruptive. Maybe schools tolerate it out of sexism or maybe not - it would require much more research.

Why is how I know this your focus in regard to the thread?

Because I have no idea how the boys in my kids' classes behave. I'm not there to see it, and it's not what my kids talk about when they get home. Also, I don't think they have mature enough insight to report on their own behaviour in terms of its disruptiveness. So I don't know and I was wondering how you did know.

Even though you explained, I am still surprised. None of my kids have ever complained about other kids' excessive burping or boasting, for example. Occasionally there has been vague reference to naughty children, but on the whole I get the impression that they like watching other kids get into trouble for its scandalous entertainment value.

Anyway, bowing out of the hate-fest now and off to cuddle my little boy who loves his rabbit.

Both are equally detrimental to other children learning, and are equally disruptive, hence my contention (and my experience) that boys and girls are equally disruptive.

It's not my experience though, and the data from our school behaviour management system doesn't back you up either. If we go to behaviour that is disruptive in lessons, boys are far more likely to be sanctioned for low level disruption than girls. Calling out, not following instructions, that sort of thing.

Do you think that girls call out and disrupt the lesson that way with the same frequency as boys and that teachers just ignore it when they do?

I think that women who have been talked over by men in work meetings would be surprised if you were to argue that it is behaviour that is equally evident in females as males.

"Hate-fest"

🙄

Nobody is saying that all boys are disruptive monsters. Nobody.

But, you know, your son liking rabbits and getting cuddles from his mother really isn't actually the iron-clad proof that boys are in no way more disruptive in school settings than girls that you think it is.

Oh my Lord!

I have a lovely, gentle, funny, friendly, empathic son too - still is as a teenager.

I’m not taking this thread ridiculously personally, though! Because I can see with my own eyes what goes on in society.

I’m just glad I’m raising one of the good ones.

The boys at my top boarding school were awful. Low level bullying all the time, ramping up to name calling, bra strap pinging. All the girls had nick names that would be shouted out at us as we passed their groups on the way to lessons. We had skirts with elastic waists and their favourite trick was to pull these down whilst you were standing in line for lunch holding a tray - revealing you to the whole dining room.
I was sexually abused at the age of 15 by my first boyfriend on the campus after prep. Never reported it as there was no point, we were never listened to.
The comp my DC go to would never tolerate a fraction of what I was subjected to every day of my school life, the pastoral care they receive outs that school to shame - it still has a dreadful reputation.

I said earlier how badly my DD was bullied by girls. The two ring leaders were very macho although girls, they were "top dog" and they disliked that my DD joined the school and suddenly they weren't "top dogs" anymore as she was academically ahead of them. They made her life hell, at 9 she was threatening suicide.

I volunteered in the class, these two girls made everything a competition to the point that my DD was told I was a loser as their mothers had more boyfriends than I did.

The boys in that class were lovely, not all angels but one of my abiding memories of that time is me going into school when she had been physically assaulted, the Head took us to the class where the Head told the girls he would be seeing them in his office and asking for any witnesses to the assault to come forward. The boys who were sitting next to girls who had been involved looked horrified at what had happened and all picked up their chairs and moved away from the violent girls, it was as if it had been choreographed.

I know there are naughty boys but there are also naughty girls and pretending that it is all boys isn't helping anyone. I feel sorry for you that your child is suffering from this and I know how hard it is to get help but lets blame the child not the sex. I can absolutely assure you that if your child's life was being affected by naughty girls you would feel just as annoyed and quite right too.

I cannot find even one post that suggests that all boys behave like this or that all girls don’t.

can people really not understand general trends and is it impossible to speak about them without numerous disclaimers?

I found the female teachers all made excuses for the girl bullies, they had difficult home lives, they were unhappy, we had to understand. I was quite clear that my DD was not at school to be a punchbag to make unhappy girls feel happier. The teachers, particularly one woman, were amazed that I had so little empathy for troubled girls. This as my DD sat there with the physical evidence of the assault and no sympathy from them at all.

I have sons and I have known naughty boys, I've even gone into school twice about issues with boys and 2 of my sons. I never heard any justification or excuses, the boys were punished.

I wonder when people look at stats if the way the very minor issues with my sons (e.g. name calling when son started wearing glasses) were recorded more accurately than the very serious issues with my DD. I also wonder how those teachers viewed them, did the teachers who viewed an issue with a boy as serious added that to a view of "naughty boys" where the teachers who justified the behaviour of the girls didn't go away thinking how naughty the girls were.

We all have biases and teachers are no different.

Because I question if the narrative that boys are naughtier is true and give reasons in my previous post.

But you are only talking about your own personal experiences, which is what makes this thread so strange.

It is like insisting that the majority of people in England don’t speak English because you live in mid wales and everyone speaks welsh, so this assertion that most people speak English is just wrong!

but lets blame the child not the sex.

What happened to your daughter sounds horrendous. I don't think anyone is denying that girls can be disruptive, abusive or violent.

However if you insist on looking at each case individually and blaming each child individually then you cannot spot patterns in general behaviour and seek to address those.

You said that the girls had difficult home-lives. Students with difficult home-lives can (but not always) act out at school. If we can spot that pattern, then we can see if a student starts acting out, it may indicate difficulties at home, investigate and put support in place.

If we can see that boys are more prone to violent behaviour than girls (and they are), then the reasons behind that can be investigated, and measures can be put in place to target this.

None of this is saying that girls can't behave violently, or that children from lovely homes don't misbehave.

If the sex of the child is influencing how adults respond to poor behaviour ( boys will be boys ; boys just have so much energy ; or just plain fear at the size of the boys ), Then the sex of the children is relevant

I wonder if this has anything to do with the widespread smartphone use during breaktime - which puts pre-teen and teenage boys into high alert mode, while completely blocking interpersonal bonds.

Girls are also impacted, but the required dose is smaller for boys due to hormonal changes at that age in my view.

Not to mention the unfiltered content, which causes extreme anxiety at that age

Of the two girls who were ring leaders one possibly had issues at home, the other didn't. I knew her parents better than the teacher did, it was just a standard get out of jail free card the teacher used.

Spotting trends only works if the teacher isn't already biased. My DD's teacher clearly was. She was very quick to condemn boys for any small infringement but girls could get away with murder. Almost literally in one instance when she stood and watched one of the bullies pull my DD into a swimming pool by the ankles and hold her under the water. Fortunately a parent governor was present and intervened. She was very shocked when called to a meeting about it, DH and I were present. She was in tears and protesting that she "thought they were playing." I don't think she spotted the pattern, do you? I'm still not sure if she just thought it was OK to bully my DD or if her bias was just so strong that she couldn't accept that the girls behaviour was completely unacceptable.

If that teacher was informing the rest of the staffroom about behaviour patterns would you trust her?

Apart from all that there is a danger in spotting a pattern in that you can then overlook something that doesn't fit the pattern. Boys are more violent so you take much longer to spot the violent girl. Girls are more vulnerable so you overlook the quiet little boy who is being bullied. Social worker assuming that the well spoken well off parent might be abusing their child (I worked with a client who suffered that, her calls for help ignored as it didn't fit the pattern) I'm not convinced that "spotting the trend" is helpful in the long run and in truth it seems a bit lazy. Let's just use stereotypes rather than taking the time to look at the actual child.

Profiling people like that does have dangers.

Again the adults biases need addressing.

I am a secondary teacher and find we have a small number of very very disruptive students - these are split equally boys/girls and often very difficult home life- these are ironically easier to manage as there are often strategies in place for them learning elsewhere for example.

We then have a larger group of low level disruptive students. In years 7-11 this group us heavily skewed towards boys. Depending on the mix of them in a group these can be harder to manage especially for a new teacher.