Tonbridge School or Winchester College

[Marshmallowtreat]

My DS has been offered a place at Winchester College and Tonbridge School for year 9.
We are finding difficult to make a decision at the moment.

Can any current or recent parents offer advice?
He is currently at a London day school so he will be new to boarding.

The statement that Eton can restrict the number of foreign students to 10 per cent comes from a position of financial strength due to the sizeable endowment? Plus the multi million pound yearly donations? Do they go towards the bursaries primarily? When you actually look at Winchester’s financial statements they don’t seem badly off at all. So this new move is driven by what? Being relevant/current etc? They could also restrict their foreign students to a certain percentage if they wanted to?

Hi, sorry to go back to the original question. We have an offer from Tonbridge and can't decide whether to accept. We're worried about the alpha and sporty Tonbridge "type", which is so far removed from our very much beta, shy and unsporty son...He has another offer from a less "good" school that we like but it's far away from home.

Any insight and honest experiences of Tonbridge appreciated!

I posted replying to the OP before the thread appeared to get slightly taken over. In my experience the view that Tonbridge is very alpha and only for super sporty boys is outdated. My not so sporty eldest is loving his time there - though I'd add that whilst he didn't enjoy sport so much at his prep he is loving it at Tonbridge as he has been able to find his level. Rugby only has to be played in the first term of novi - thereafter they can choose each term what the play and do not necessarily have to do the big team sports. There is a huge range of sports.
I have found it to be very strong pastorally and my son is very happy.

Sons of our family friend’s have a great time there. One of them is not sporty and still thrive. You definitely do not have to be an alpha male to survive there. It is however help to be good at sport.

What are other options?

Thanks both. We have a local school and he's sitting the Sevenoaks school test in a few weeks.

I'm not sure Sevenoaks is for him (my daughter goes there).

@workisnotawolf

Winchester is always very international. In a good school guide they said

“ School maintains that its proportion of students from abroad (just under a quarter) has been constant for 15 years, but also says there’s no quota: ‘We always respond to quality.”

Although Winchester is not as rich as Eton because of its size, it is still very well off. Winchester has so much land and assets in Hampshire ( Eton is much richer because it has lot of land around Bloomsbury, London). Winchester has 14.5 million pounds endowment just for last year and next year they are aiming to raise another 20 million pounds. The school is raising to pay for more bursaries and further development plans.

Plenty of my friends went to Tonbridge, did well and loved it there. Sons of friends who go there also really enjoy being there it. My DS sat the scholarship exams for there and each time we went there, it had a really happy vibe to it. The teachers and Head were lovely. DS passed the exams (and the 11plus) but then chose to go to grammar as his best mate was also going there. I loved the school though (NB I love the one he goes to as well!).

I can’t comment on Win.

Tonbridge isn’t a bad town. There’s quite a bit to do around there for teens. And you don’t have to travel far to get to some lovely areas.

Eton KS scholarship 2021 also made up by around 50-60% foreigner.

I’ve heard from some friends that Eton is also heading for more diversity, increasing intake from London schools, State schools and foreign students.

I think the English public schools are no longer needed to keep a low number of foreign students. It is a global world and they have to become international.

More international I mean

@Beyondthesea123 - I know a few boys at Eton, their families live in London but they are all “foreign” in that both parents were born abroad, at least 2 passport nationalities sometimes 3/4 in one family. Most now have British citizenship too. What does “foreign” even mean these days, especially in London. There are British diplomatic families living abroad sending their children to UK boarding schools, are they counted as foreign or British? Plus British children born in Britain with 2 Indian or Chinese parents are they British or Asian? Who knows, I certainly cannot keep up.

Based on my son’s experience Winchester is much more than 20% from overseas, though as you say, many have multiple passports and own property in several countries. This doesn’t worry us. His best friend is ‘foreign’. I think the lower sets have a higher percentage of identifiably British students. Sadly his best friend has decided to go to a prestigious boarding school in the US with an impressive Ivy League record since Winchester announced that day girls are joining boys boarding houses. I think there must be more to it than that but there is certainly a combination of not wanting the disruption and his parents feeling that the school has the wrong priorities and will lose prestige over time. As they put it - for them Winchester meant intellectual, Eton meant posh, but they are not convinced Winchester can retain that and go woke. Like all international families, they have no particular loyalty to the U.K. so will do what they think will provide their son with the best opportunities for his adult life. Their perception may be wrong but I don’t believe introducing a hand full of girls in sixth form is going to attract families committed to coeducation for their sons, while I do think it risks putting off families wanting to buy into 600+ years of stability and expertise in educating boys.

I think there are two factors behind the co-ed move:

1. Oxbridge places. These have halved at Winchester and Eton (and probably many other few paying schools) over the last decade or so as the universities scramble to prove they are not rewarding privilege. Combine this with the fact that a significant proportion of boys are not Oxbridge calibre and you can see why it would be advantageous to take sixth formers with straight 9s at GCSE (especially if some come from the state sector). You can bump up your Oxbridge success numbers disproportionately.

1. Bursaries and public benefit for demonstrating charitable status. It is much more affordable and less risky to offer a bursary place for two years to several day students with great GCSE results than one full border for five years. It also allows means your bursary stats on % of children and % discount on fees look more impressive then it is.

My son really makes the most of being there. He is involved in so much and I think there are advantages to being known to teachers as a good egg when you go into the sixth form, but Winchester are going to have to prove to my son that it is worth his while staying. As he recently pointed out to me: Peter Simmonds is an excellent sixth form college offering a greater choice of A levels and much more freedom at a fraction of the price (state boarding school) and has the advantage of being a state school. We will go to their next open day and visit a properly co-ed boarding school, then the decision is his.

@Wincollmum

I completely agreed with you about the factors behind the co-ed moved. It was such a bold move by The Governing body, definitely not everyone cup of tea.

Winchester is likely to announce the new headmaster by the end of the summer term since the new headmaster has to give a year notice to his current school. The new headmaster will be the one that will determine the faith of the school, how to retain intellectual environment and prestigious while turning co-ed.

We were facing the same problem about it turning co-ed. However my son decide to stay since he is fine with it being co-ed. He really makes the most of it being at Winchester and he settles very well so he would like to stay here until university.

Peter Symonds is a wonderful school and many boys from Winchester college moved there at sixth form for a better chance at Oxbridge.

My son Does not want to go to Oxbridge but he would like to go to University in the US, currently those universities love application from UK. We also have some legacy status over there which is easier for our son to get a place from our Alma Maters.

Winchester has an increasing numbers of leavers going to ivy leagues, Stanford and MIT since Oxbridge has changed so much, much more than Winchester is changing.

You are much more in the know than me. We are not the sort of parents to raise a query with the school. Our son will either choose to stay or leave and if the latter we will simply hand in our notice, even though it probably would not have happened if the school were not going through all this upheaval.

@wincolmum Do you really think that Winchester College will have to prove to your son that it is worth staying. Why would they do that?
As you said they can fill the 6th form with children from state schools with excellent GCSES .
Winchester won't be proving to anyone that it's worth staying. I say that as a parent of two sons who attended Winchester.

In the same way as they will have to for any other student there. You can’t turn an institution on its head, cause a boy’s friends to leave or contemplate leaving and not expect him to consider his options too. It isn’t that special or life changing a place. The fact that they can fill the gaps left by departing boarding boys is neither here nor there. There is value in continuity and they should be trying to hold on to high achieving and well behaved boys who joined in Y9. Yet several of my son’s friends are talking about leaving and two have said their parents will switch them to day boys. This will cause a lot of change. So yes, I do think the school need to sell the sixth form experience to the boys. And not on the basis of girls joining. My son ha me plenty of sisters, female cousins and female friends at home. Going to an all-boys school was never going to cause him to grow up afraid to talk to women or some such nonsensical argument that I have heard put forward for bringing 16 girls into the sixth form.

The way the announcement was made was all the proof that I would have needed to realize that Winchester are not thinking of their current pupils.
Families from overseas have the option of the US and I don't blame them to be honest. That's not really an option for most UK families who will be relying on UK universities due to cost etc. I don't blame you one bit for feeling this way as I presume your son is only in JP or MP. They really didn't consider their current pupils. I sent my son's to Winchester for all the reasons that you did. I wouldn't do it now. The loss of what full boarding will mean is hardly been mentioned.
It's a horrible situation for parents.snd boys.

@Lookingformykeys

Winchester thinks by doing this it will increases Oxbridge numbers as well as school diversity. However the transition is questionable especially parents who bought in the single sex education.

Many other schools such as Charterhouse, Westminster, Rugby and Wellington have gone through this change before. In some cases such as Westminster and Wellington, they actually became better.

If you son is in VI book 2 or VI book 1, he will not even going to be studying with girls this September. None of this things will effect his Oxbridge places, it possibly going to increase his chance.

If your son is in V then it is abit more challenging but again having 19-20 girls out of 140-160 students, nothing will really change at this stage. Again your son Oxbridge chances may be going to increase because the results here is one of the best but it has less and less Oxbridge places because of being one of most elite school in the country and lack of diversity does not help ( same as Eton which has Oxbridge places dropped tremendously as well). V parents can decide to leave now but I am sure coming from Winchester with a great GCSE prediction, most of the school will take them.

MP parents just have to carry on with the GCSEs and make up their mind later after completing the curriculum.

JP this year came with the understanding of the Co-Ed situation ( they were told before they joined, I know it gave such a a short notice but they could have switched to Eton, Harrow, Radley or other all boys school during that short period) so they are most likely to stay.

I am sure in a few years the oxbridge places will keep increasing and many more leavers will go to Ivy leagues.

The school will still be one of the top independence school academically. But the atmosphere will definitely change with girl being here, for better or worse only times will tell.

@Beyondthesea123 Luckily my sons have already left Winchester .I agree the atmosphere will definitely change. A school with day pupils will have a completely different feel to it. Boys and parents in MP and beyond didn't buy into this and even JP will have accepted their place and turned down other schools when the announcement was made. To announce this change during lockdown was particularly poor form imo. An email at midnight followed by an article in the morning paper. It f left parents in a very difficult situation.

As you said boys can decide to leave if they wish that's obviously how Winchester felt.

@Lookingformykeys I agree with everything you have said. The change has been introduced in an underhand way. Both the manner and the lies (like the assurance that boys boarding houses will not be impacted then announcing the introduction of day girls into boys boarding houses a year later) smack of misandry. A boys boarding school run by people who think boys cannot be trusted to be in an all-boys environment has some serious questions to answer, but there is no point in even asking them because they have made it clear that parents are just replaceable cash machines and their concerns are of no consequence.

We withdrew DS from Winchester 2021 entry because of the changes in nature of the school, the disruption and uncertainty of day boys and girls, but especially because of the awful underhanded way the school went about this, waiting until parents were legally and financially committed (not to mention other offers relinquished) before presenting the fait accompli. The message we took from this was ‘Winchester College can act with impunity’. As a mindset that’s incompatible with putting children’s interests first, and we found ourselves scrambling to extricate our DS: not so easy to do at that late stage, but worth it to have DS in a school that I can trust.

@Beyondthesea123 unfortunately it’s not so easy to switch on a place at Harrow, Eton or Radley for 13 year olds in their final term of prep, however able or talented. So unless they were still holding on to multiple offers, prospective JM parents were left with the decision to opt for a less in-demand school or put up with whatever Winchester decided they should swallow. There are better ways of introducing such a change but I suspect the Head was impatient for his place in Winchester history so wouldn’t wait!

I'm sure the school will come out all the better in the Long run. The Likes of Westminster came out better after adding girls in sixth form and I am certain Wincoll will follow suit.

Does anyone know why the Big name Girl's school are not taking Boys at sixth form? Why aren't the likes of Wycombe Abbey, CLC,Roedean,Downe House, Benenden et al taking Boys too?

We also decided on not taking up our Sep 2022 place. We found it very strange that we received a email one evening telling us about the changes. I have no problems with co-ed but it will be disruptive for the next few years and the day places will change the school.

Honestly I don't think it is such a big deal. When I was a kid we also had new girls introduced to the boarding house of a previously all boy school. There were no announcements several years in advance, it just happened in September... and we wide eyed 14 year old boys were grateful for it! 😀

It's not like girls are so different from boys... there are some nuances in terms of science vs humanities orientation yes, but it is really splitting hairs to focus on that and an exaggeration to claim that it will cause a massive disruption to WinCol. Other than anxious parents making boys anxious and manifesting problems that otherwise wouldn't appear. Or magnifying issues that would have otherwise gone undetected. In my experience 16+ is a perfect age for that too, so it's really the best of all worlds.

Now day students are something entirely different of course, without going through the intermediate step of weekly boarding, and could shake things up more than a bit... but it is still very much preferred to the despicable annual culling of teenager that many top senior schools do.

I am sure most boys will survive a bit of a reshuffle of the weekly schedule😉

I agree with Next11. Most of the boys and current parents at Winchester think it is not a big deal.

The truth is girls will have their own studies and other facilities outside boy’s boarding houses. Girls will just have meals with boys and they need to belong to some houses for sports and other competitions.

I recently met the old girls who came to Winchester College in 1990s. They said they had a good time and it was 5 them in the year. It was quite common then to have 3-10 girls in the final two years.