Is school pointless?

[idkkkk]

I want to know what the ladies on this board think about schools. Considering that 1 in 2 Brits don't know basic arithmetic, or grammar, and a lot of the things learnt in school go in one ear and out the other. Yet we are "educated" for 10-15 years on these topics.

Couple that with bullying, and exposure to all sorts of very objectionable and destructive things, is school really what we make it out to be? Are our assumptions about education even valid? Is teaching a teen highly abstract ideas that were conceived by people 2-3 times their age a sensible thing to do?

Ahhh I see now. You just want to take a swipe at teachers. Someone who talks about school idealistically with no idea of the reality. If you want to find out about schools go and volunteer in one. Make a contribution to the education of children.

asking a bunch of teachers to engage in highly abstract philosophical discussions might be a bit much.
Aren't you a charmer?!

Any OP which starts..I want to know what the ladies on this board think....is never going to go well.

He didn't want to know what the ladies thought, he wanted to tell the ladies what he thought.

We were supposed to be bowled over by his insight.

I said upthread I thought just come out of watching that Ken Robinson video. Now I think he's so new to this debate that he doesn't even know that Ken Robinson video. I was sure he'd bring up Sugata Mitra....nope.

Disappointing.

The funny thing is I do actually agree that unschooling can be brilliant for the right kids, and there are a lot of problems with the education system. I looked at moving my eldest to a school that subscribes to all this, because unfortunately due to my own issues I'm not able to provide the right environment for it to work for him myself. In the end we decided against it and I am glad because his school is brilliant for him.

I just don't agree that school is pointless. I don't think it's schools "fault" that children come out without being able to read or do maths, even though I recognise that it doesn't suit all children. For a very few then yes the system as it is won't suit them and it should be more flexible, but for the vast majority of kids who fall through the net they could do just fine at school or given an autonomous approach. What is in the way are other things. Poverty, abuse, trauma, for example. Being a young carer. Being homeless. We have a social problem far bigger than our education problem.

Support mental health properly and make it a priority for adults and children and the amount of traumatised and abused children will go way down.

Fund social services properly and give social workers actual time and resources to help families rather than giving no help and in the end having no option but to remove children far too late when the damage has been done. Make foster care more attractive so children don't suffer dozens of moves.

Better benefits system and safety net so that parents aren't drowning. CSA that isn't a total joke.

Better family courts with a deep and thorough understanding of abuse dynamics so that children aren't forced to constantly be retraumatised by contact with abusive parents. And women aren't afraid to leave violent men because they know he will murder the children (or her) if she leaves. And they are right.

Solve the housing crisis and open up all of these empty new builds to vulnerable families so that children have the time and space to do their homework. Or discover burning passions or whatever. You can't do that when you're living in a one room B&B with three siblings and your clothes always stink because there's nowhere to store them and they only get washed occasionally.

Solve these problems and you'd achieve much more as well as massively improving a large proportion of children's access to education. It doesn't really matter what format that education takes. Both of them work about equally as well for most children.

I think you need to step out of the schools and think about what's going wrong here, not the other way round because clearly you don't have a handle on this. But then again, asking a bunch of teachers to engage in highly abstract philosophical discussions might be a bit much.

And I think you need to step into schools, because until you know what is actually happening in schools you cannot argue for change.
And let’s turn this from a ‘philosophical discussion’ into a practical one, because you ignore all the questions about practicalities put to you by people who actually know how children learn and how the current education system works.
How will you implement individualised teaching based on each child’s interests for all children?
Who is funding you while you continue on your journey of education and self discovery? Most children will need to get a job when they leave school, and for that they will need a certain level of skills and knowledge.
Have you ever visited a Steiner school?

And that doesn't even start to cover bullying, racism, homophobia etc. More reasons children avoid school which is nothing to do with the way the curriculum is structured.

@MrsHamlet

I was talking to a y12 boy today. He's doing maths and science A levels. I taught him GCSE English. He wouldn't have chosen it but he had to do it. Today's conversation began with him asking me whether I thought the language we speak today would be the same if Shakespeare had never lived. He found an interest in language by being forced to read Shakespeare. He wants to see a play now. That wouldn't have happened if he'd been allowed to explore his interests. They were not his until the curriculum introduced him to them.

One of the best moments of my teaching career was when a very STEM oriented student made a last minute change from science to Eng Lit for his university application ; he realised that studying literature was illuminating and profoundly educational. . He's a highly respected writer and journalist now.

It is imperative that we make knowledge and a wide range of subjects available because the likelihood of 'discovering' them independently is small. A good education is one which offers many varied and diverse subjects and helps students find what they love and are stimulated by. Imagine a curriculum with no humanities, languages, art, music, communications, Ancient history, classics., theology....
the idea that we should not bother because there might not be anu 'use' for it is positively Gradgrindian. And that's a Dickens reference, OP.

But then again, asking a bunch of teachers to engage in highly abstract philosophical discussions might be a bit much.

I thought teachers were imposing "highly abstract" discussions on helpless ickle teenagers who should have been finger-painting or building Mazdas? By now, you'd think that teachers would be pretty well versed in them.

At any rate, this isn't a "highly abstract philosophical discussion", this is the equivalent of "But Miiiiiisssssssss, why do I even need to know algebra anyway?"

I think you need to step out of the schools and think about what's going wrong here, not the other way round because clearly you don't have a handle on this. But then again, asking a bunch of teachers to engage in highly abstract philosophical discussions might be a bit much.

As someone who who works with schools rather than in schools I think you're talking rubbish. How can you know what does/doesn't work with such limited knowledge and experience.

Exposing young people to a wide range of subjects and knowledge is very important for all the reasons that have been listed by teachers on this thread.

I research how people make career related decisions and one of the biggest issues that crops up is that young people are not exposed to a wide enough range of careers meaning they are picking from a selection of jobs they know about - the same goes for subjects taught in school. If learning is dictated by a young persons interest then they are going to end up with a very limited knowledge base.

This would further widen the disadvantage gap as some children would be at a huge advantage if their parents were ensuring they were exposed to a wide range of experiences and knowledge.

Very good point. I had no idea my job existed till some years after I'd left university. My parents certainly had no awareness either.

Isn't it convenient that all the ruffled damsels are unable to deal with the facts and must resort to anecdotes and ad hominems ? Looks like all those abstract ideas didn't avail you - ever ponder that ?

Don't you realise your assumptions about education are wrong ? It doesn't matter what you think, the writing is on the wall. How do you account for the abysmal numeracy and literacy rates ? YOU should be asking these questions, not me, but you're not; you are complacent.

You are part of this cog failing society and your nonchalance avails no one, beating your punctured drums whilst you walk off the cliff, one by one, dragging a stream of corpse behind you as you tarry towards nirvana.

Ultimately, it's a structural and ideological issue. This transcends the immediate here and now, and is further accentuated by the mass social rot currently underway as pointed out by others here. They are right, this issue transcends education - ultimately, it is an allusion of a dying civilisation which is inevitable.

I may be putting up an affront but ultimately it is out of concern, but it seems that you are contented. But one thing I have established is you have no argument, and you have no case - the system is failing, the data is against the system, deal with it, but that's the problem, you won't - more bandages it is.

I'm out.

BTW I'm a SHE not a he!

“ruffled damsels”

Sure you are

Don't you realise your assumptions about education are wrong ?

Shit...better hand my PhD back and tell my university to stop employing me. Turns out I know nothing!

@idkkkk

BTW I'm a SHE not a he!

No you aren't. You are a straw man, and a goady one who isn't prepared to see any point of view other than your own.

And you still haven't said whether you have any children.

I remember reading that one of Leonard Cohen's muses described his songwriting process as "Verbal masturbation". That seems quite an accurate descriptor of the OP's last post.

OP, posters have explained to you the benefits of introducing children and teenagers to a wide range of academic subjects, even if they don't use them. I'll be first in line to say that there is room for improvement in our education system, but I don't think it's going to come from someone whose proposal for teaching children is "Let them build cars and we'll slip a bit of maths in there!" Or, indeed, someone who seems to have teenagers confused with toddlers and envisages them overwhelmed with the vast, abstract, philosophical concepts Hamlet, differentiation, a bit about the Tudors and some osmosis thrown in there .

@idkkkk

Isn't it convenient that all the ruffled damsels are unable to deal with the facts and must resort to anecdotes and ad hominems ? Looks like all those abstract ideas didn't avail you - ever ponder that ?

Don't you realise your assumptions about education are wrong ? It doesn't matter what you think, the writing is on the wall. How do you account for the abysmal numeracy and literacy rates ? YOU should be asking these questions, not me, but you're not; you are complacent.

You are part of this cog failing society and your nonchalance avails no one, beating your punctured drums whilst you walk off the cliff, one by one, dragging a stream of corpse behind you as you tarry towards nirvana.

Ultimately, it's a structural and ideological issue. This transcends the immediate here and now, and is further accentuated by the mass social rot currently underway as pointed out by others here. They are right, this issue transcends education - ultimately, it is an allusion of a dying civilisation which is inevitable.

I may be putting up an affront but ultimately it is out of concern, but it seems that you are contented. But one thing I have established is you have no argument, and you have no case - the system is failing, the data is against the system, deal with it, but that's the problem, you won't - more bandages it is.

I'm out.

Sanctimonious tripe

I don't think we should enage with the OP as the OP isn't prepared for two way communication.

There's a certain irony to stating that adults lack a basic understanding of grammar whilst also making multiple grammatical errors throughout the post.

In addition, your initial premise is flawed. If 50% of adults 'only' have the same knowledge of grammar and arithmetic expected of eleven-year-olds then they do understand grammar and arithmetic to the functional level required for adult life. You've allowed yourself to be taken in by a sensationalist article.

My DCs are adults with their own DCs. They all have demanding jobs that they enjoy, their DCs happily go to school. They went to ordinary schools, also their former school friends are also doing well.
They are fine for this society. Some different education might have been a good thing but if you don't have stats for a decent number who have completed this different education how can it be deemed better?

Just spotted my spelling mistake
engage

I'd like to point out that the OP cannot use the verbs 'tarry' or 'avail' correctly.
Oh the irony.....hilarious!

I'm out.

Do you promise?

I'm going to start using tarry and avail more frequently, very underused words.