Is school pointless?

[idkkkk]

I want to know what the ladies on this board think about schools. Considering that 1 in 2 Brits don't know basic arithmetic, or grammar, and a lot of the things learnt in school go in one ear and out the other. Yet we are "educated" for 10-15 years on these topics.

Couple that with bullying, and exposure to all sorts of very objectionable and destructive things, is school really what we make it out to be? Are our assumptions about education even valid? Is teaching a teen highly abstract ideas that were conceived by people 2-3 times their age a sensible thing to do?

Namenic, I'd be more than happy to see some changes in the curriculum within the current structure but I suspect we'd never get to the point where we all completely agreed as we've all found different aspects of education useful. I don't think there are fundamental flaws in the education system though as the OP does, within the limitations of what we can reasonably finance as a society (I'd love to see more funding of education but we'll never manage such a level of universal individualised learning).

@idkkkk opt out if you like but I would rather my doctors, nurses, lawyers etc all had a good education!

Yes crankysaurus - I will agree with you there that there are funding limitations on what we can do. I think the opportunity to work from an earlier age (in addition to studying) will be more beneficial to some. Expanding apprenticeships is a positive development. I hope they can take advantage of technology/internet to introduce a wide range of different options - building up to recognised certification by professional bodies.

Yes - whole scale reorganisation is probably going to be hugely costly, and may have downsides too. But perhaps more diverse, alternative pathways than gcse, Btec, a level, uni can be provided?

I'm really keen on apprenticeships and it would be great to see them extend into a wider breadth of employment sectors, and have become a big fan of Btecs with our eldest going through them /GCSEs at the moment. They were always a bit looked down on while I was as school but they include some really useful applied learning.

We offer apprenticeships where I work. Not everyone is university shaped or wants to go to university.

@TheChip - I don't think grouping children based on how they learn is the answer.

Instead of having say set 1-5, you suddenly have set 1 -5 with several sub sets for academic to practical on sliding scales in both directions. In other words, you'll never get it right as children change as they grow. You will need two, three times as many teachers and suitable classrooms.

I would however support a school system away from academic achievement for the teens that are just not academic or have no interest in university. Rather than indirectly telling them how crap and stupid they are (I am looking at you Mrs HeadTeacher @ YlvaDC school) we should teach them what they can do and how they can achieve at school and beyond.

I definitely think BTEC and apprenticeships are the answer. We just need to get secondary schools properly on board!

Bad news for you then, BTECs are being scrapped.

[quote Placido]@idkkkk opt out if you like but I would rather my doctors, nurses, lawyers etc all had a good education![/quote]
Well, there is a 56% chance [1] that your doctor's mathematical prowess is that of a kid, a 20% chance that he is functionally illiterate, 60% chance [2] he or she or it doesn't know the difference between a noun, verb and adjective. An 82% chance [2] that they forgot trigonometry and so on.

Maybe that explains a lot of the misdiagnoses ? Let's be frank, doctors have practically zero critical thinking or analytical skills, they are very algorithmic, and lets not forget, most are profoundly arrogant.

The western assumption of education is fatally flawed. This is not simply a case of "more education", "better curriculum", your underlying assumptions about the theory of knowledge are wrong.

Most of you lot have proven my point. You can't think logically, you don't know how to be critically minded, you are dogmatic, there is no creative intelligence and when presented with the opportunity to think outside the box you can't seem to fathom it and fall back into the "better curriculum" narrative; you are cogs in this machine.

[1] www.nationalnumeracy.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Our_year_in_numbers/national_numeracy_day_2019.pdf
[2] www.thesun.co.uk/news/7026841/almost-60-of-brits-admit-they-dont-know-the-difference-between-a-noun-verb-and-adjective/

OP - I do agree that with the general point that the school system doesn’t suit everyone. But it is effective for some people.

In at least some eastern countries - the emphasis is far more on traditional academia, rote learning and high stakes exams. I grew up there. Negatives are mental health issues and maybe more conformity. Positives are that more people have technical skills and go into stem. It may have helped v rapid development of countries and living standards.

The issue with the 56% statistic is that you are comparing 2 different populations: general U.K. pop vs doctor pop. There are many reasons why these demographics are not comparable - so it would not be valid to apply the 56% to the doctor pop. My guess is that most doctors would know basic arithmetics, percentages etc - as this is involved in dosage calculations and post grad exams. Maybe stuff like trig they may have forgotten.

Horses for courses - are they going to replace btecs with something - T levels or some other alternative? I hope they can cater for different learning styles.

I read somewhere a statistic that 50% of MNers talk complete shite.

@idkkkk you didn't answer my question Do you have children?

@idkkkk and you haven’t answered my question, how many schools do you actually have experience of?

@Namenic

OP - I do agree that with the general point that the school system doesn’t suit everyone. But it is effective for some people.

In at least some eastern countries - the emphasis is far more on traditional academia, rote learning and high stakes exams. I grew up there. Negatives are mental health issues and maybe more conformity. Positives are that more people have technical skills and go into stem. It may have helped v rapid development of countries and living standards.

The issue with the 56% statistic is that you are comparing 2 different populations: general U.K. pop vs doctor pop. There are many reasons why these demographics are not comparable - so it would not be valid to apply the 56% to the doctor pop. My guess is that most doctors would know basic arithmetics, percentages etc - as this is involved in dosage calculations and post grad exams. Maybe stuff like trig they may have forgotten.

Horses for courses - are they going to replace btecs with something - T levels or some other alternative? I hope they can cater for different learning styles.

Good observations.

The problem with eastern countries is although they have very high technical skills, that usually comes at a cost, creativity, originality, critical thinking, logic etc. Its no wonder that countries like China have built an industry on usurping other countries IP. Its a very extreme form of education might I add.

With regards to doctors and statistics, we agree. Why do doctors have a higher probable numeracy rate ? is it because they learnt it at school or because they want to be doctors and so numeracy is something they learn to accompany their understanding?
This is precisely my argument, teach them the bare minimum and then let them explore, and don't assume that knowledge comes to an end when you hit 21, it's a life long journey and growth is till the grave.

Also, doctors operate a wide array of functions. Some doctors may have to use math extensively, but other doctors may not be using much math, if any at all. There is also age and experience with dosing - as you become more accustomed to the process you can guess with reasonable accuracy what patient X needs, thereby diminishing the utilisation of mathematics and increasing the likelihood they will forget it.

But even then, the other statistics could still be attributed to doctors, for example, not knowing basic grammar, because functionally, there is no need to know such distinctions. So in the end, it still levels out and is reasonably accurate even if the deviation is sightly higher.
You notice this problem with all complex fields really, no one person can encompass the entire depth and breadth of their respective fields, hence specialisations, and I have intimate knowledge of this personally too.

Good pointers nonetheless.

@crankysaurus

I read somewhere a statistic that 50% of MNers talk complete shite.

@crankysaurus Presumably, there is a 50% chance your statement is shite.

@RampantIvy I'm guessing your follow up will be how do I manage children, their potential, growth and individualised education. That is a good question and needs more research, not better curriculum. I don't think we will solve it in this generation, but we need to get our thinking hats on. Is this really the only way to learning ?
Working parents doesn't aid this process either, although that doesn't really negate my argument in any case.

@Elisheva This question doesn't matter. You should be dealing the statistics instead.

@Elisheva This question doesn't matter. You should be dealing the statistics instead.

On the contrary, I think the question of ‘How many schools have you actually been in’ is key to the discussion, because you are making many sweeping statements based on no real experience of the type of education currently being offered in schools, and making judgements based on a single source of statistics that are 10 years out of date.

I think there are some things you just don’t forget because you have done it so much. I haven’t ridden a bike or swum for a long time, but I don’t forget how to do them because I had a lot of practice as a child. I forgot and re-learned so many times that I can just do them.

Same with numeracy, grammar and reading. Unless you have a medical problem, you don’t forget the alphabet or how to read IF you have attained a certain level of maintained proficiency.

Ideally kids would attain this proficiency - so that they don’t forget. But unfortunately quite a few people don’t - especially with stuff like fractions and percentages. I guess the question is how best to help them get there.

Imagine trying to reason with a taliban fighter (an uneducated one not one of the Oxbridge/Harvard elite) - where would you start to debate something with someone with no education.
It's mind boggling really.

With as much chance as your opinions.

There are problems with the UK education but I think we produce more entrepreneurs, more popular music bands/ singers, musicals, plays, devise tv series, produce tv series - recently Scandinavian countries have been praised on MN. How many of the above have Sweden produced compared to us. I mean, Abba was 1971 or thereabouts.

I agree we aren't hot on developing inventions but we aren't so bad at making them.

[quote Elisheva]**@Elisheva This question doesn't matter. You should be dealing the statistics instead.

On the contrary, I think the question of ‘How many schools have you actually been in’ is key to the discussion, because you are making many sweeping statements based on no real experience of the type of education currently being offered in schools, and making judgements based on a single source of statistics that are 10 years out of date.[/quote]
Absolutely this. I might just wander into a hospital and start spouting ideas at people.

[quote Elisheva]**@Elisheva This question doesn't matter. You should be dealing the statistics instead.

On the contrary, I think the question of ‘How many schools have you actually been in’ is key to the discussion, because you are making many sweeping statements based on no real experience of the type of education currently being offered in schools, and making judgements based on a single source of statistics that are 10 years out of date.[/quote]
That is a diversion. The points underscored are foundational. Build all you want, if it sits on sand it won't stand. Please explain why the government itself is stumped by this and trying to find ways to remediate it. Also, the latest stats are from 2018, and the NationalNumercy ones listed above are recent - the survey stated that if anything, numeracy and literacy levels are getting worse, not better.

I think you need to step out of the schools and think about what's going wrong here, not the other way round because clearly you don't have a handle on this. But then again, asking a bunch of teachers to engage in highly abstract philosophical discussions might be a bit much.

The writing is on the wall. Why must we adhere to this methodology anyway ? most of the greatest minds in history were not trained like this. It's efficient at churning out minions by the 100s of 1000s, but it comes at the expense of practically everything else.

@Namenic

I think there are some things you just don’t forget because you have done it so much. I haven’t ridden a bike or swum for a long time, but I don’t forget how to do them because I had a lot of practice as a child. I forgot and re-learned so many times that I can just do them.

Same with numeracy, grammar and reading. Unless you have a medical problem, you don’t forget the alphabet or how to read IF you have attained a certain level of maintained proficiency.

Ideally kids would attain this proficiency - so that they don’t forget. But unfortunately quite a few people don’t - especially with stuff like fractions and percentages. I guess the question is how best to help them get there.

You are somewhat right about that. Why does swimming stick, probably because it engages different parts of the brain and includes muscle memory and it's based on the "experience", whereas the school teaching is pure abstract with no tangible experience associated to it. Experience based learning should come first when dealing with kids. Abstractions can come later. We don't forget the alphabet because it's how we communicate, it's too fundamental, and once again is retained because we use it.

@Spiindoctor

Imagine trying to reason with a taliban fighter (an uneducated one not one of the Oxbridge/Harvard elite) - where would you start to debate something with someone with no education. It's mind boggling really.

How is this even an argument ? What is it with everyone and Taliban analogies? You do realise those uneducated men outmaneuvered the apparently educated west, right ? Not sure if it says more about them or the west.

Also, considering this education system is quite novel, how do you account for the fact that historically these methods weren't used and yet most of our modern standards and systems are built on foundations by men who preceded our "education" systems ? You are a prime example of someone failed by this system but go on..

**Okay, looking .... so what am I looking for exactly?

Maybe you need to go back to school to become slightly more clued up on the world

You do realise those uneducated men outmaneuvered the apparently educated west, right

If you are a soldier who believes that you will go to heaven to be feted by 7 virigins, so actually are happy to die, like kamikaze japanese pilots, then you are going to defeat those with more rational views who would prefer not to die.