Is school pointless?

[idkkkk]

I want to know what the ladies on this board think about schools. Considering that 1 in 2 Brits don't know basic arithmetic, or grammar, and a lot of the things learnt in school go in one ear and out the other. Yet we are "educated" for 10-15 years on these topics.

Couple that with bullying, and exposure to all sorts of very objectionable and destructive things, is school really what we make it out to be? Are our assumptions about education even valid? Is teaching a teen highly abstract ideas that were conceived by people 2-3 times their age a sensible thing to do?

Oh for goodness sake

When I was 16, I thought my parents knew nothing. When I was 21, I was shocked to discover how much they had picked up in the last 5 years.
Author: Winston Churchill

@PlanDeRaccordement

An 18 y/o just doesn't have the life experience and historical + philosophical back drop to really appreciate the nuance of what they are learning.

So what? In school as a child I learned about 1789 and the Terror. Yes 7yr old me was not exposed to the class genocide of even children getting their heads lopped off to crowds baying for the deaths. But so what? I learned the full horror and nuance of the Revolution later in life. And at least it wasn’t all new and a surprise to me because I’d already learned the rough outline. You cannot withhold ALL knowledge of something because a person is too young to take all of it in at once. You teach it age appropriate and then it can be built on. Repeated. And repetition is the proven way to get knowledge to stick.

But we do withhold knowledge from kids, loads of it. You have pretty much just proven my point. School is not the end all, it should be a starting point for a life long journey of maximising your potential and discovery.

@PlanDeRaccordement

It's only because of this capitalist model that we are ingrained with this idea of exploring your "potential" in school and then work your life away for the next 50 years.

Schools for educating children and young adults have nothing to do with capitalism. They’re as separate as the moon and a wheel of cheese. Sounds like you need to explore your inner economist since you obviously do not even know what capitalism is.

Educate yourself on 1950s America and how the USA post WW2 were encouraging kids to not marry at 18 and get a higher education instead. It was driven by a proto neo-liberalism, and the fact that the USA was the industrial production house of the world since Europe was in ruin, and because the cold war was underway and there was a conflict between communism vs capitalism.

You have pretty much just proven my point. School is not the end all, it should be a starting point for a life long journey of maximising your potential and discovery.

Your point is that school is pointless. So I see we have changed your mind. Fantastic! School is not pointless.

It would have happened though, just a little later in life. Again, you are assuming that schools are the only place where a person can find themselves, I reject that.
You can reject it all you like. I know this student well. He would not have picked up Shakespeare on his own.
I also said nothing about "finding himself"

This has actually hit a raw nerve for me as my son has an SEN and missed out on a school place for a number of years (on top of the pandemic bits that were also missing) and then has been on a part time timetable ever since.
He actually is taught the way you suggest. In that he has a 1:1 and they do practical tasks based on his interests and they try to slip some maths in..

It sounds a bit melodramatic but i 'grieve' all the schooling he hasnt had compared to his brother. His options are so narrowed.

@nonamehere

"An 18 y/o just doesn't have the life experience and historical + philosophical back drop to really appreciate the nuance of what they are learning" But many do appreciate the beauty of abstract Maths, even while lacking these life experiences. Would you prefer them not to be exposed to it, just because some won't be interested?

Part of the beauty of a thing is understanding it's various nuances, it's historical backdrop, the philosophical discussions that underpin it, supporting fields like quantum or theoretical physics and so on. Each of these "layers" give you an additional layer of understanding but also a different perspective on this issue. Expecting this of an 18yo is silly since these particular nuances can take decades to develop. So the beauty an 18 yo is seeing vs a 40 yo are two different things.

Of course it's not pointless.
It's not just learning it's the social aspect too and the routine that's great for kids.

I do think some learning and effort has to be made from the parents though too, encouraging them to do well and making sure their homework/revision is completed and getting them to focus them on their end goal.
Also trying to help identify where they can be struggling and keeping in touch with the school on what they can do to help if they are falling behind on anything.
Kids need guidance from home and school.

@MrsHamlet

It would have happened though, just a little later in life. Again, you are assuming that schools are the only place where a person can find themselves, I reject that. You can reject it all you like. I know this student well. He would not have picked up Shakespeare on his own. I also said nothing about "finding himself"

I would have NEVER picked up poetry, yet, 15 years later, here I am. One of my teachers was banging on about math with I was 12/13, and was thoroughly disappointed when I didn't pursue it for university, yet here I am self studying graduate level mathematics.

I can see your point OP.
I do think the traditional educational system is antiquated and resembles assembly line learning. This works better for some than others.
If you are unconventional you are going to struggle with the one size fits all, you will struggle to fit into a box you don't belong, and be labelled as uncompliant.
Hopefully sooner or later someone will have the courage to try a different approach and maybe not just teach kids to pass exams but to also value wellbeing , kindness, empathy, compassion, free thinking, self expression etc, over achievement and attendance figures.

If say they have an interest in cars, well, lets get them to design and build one, and slip in some maths and physics whilst we're at it. great if you're home schooling but many of us can't and most teachers don't have capacity for 30 individual approaches to teaching maths.

Also that article says half of brits have maths knowledge of a primary school child - most primary school children I know have more than basic maths skills!!! Primary maths skills are more than adequate for normal living eg going to the shops etc. A lot of people won’t ever need to know more than that. I did A -level maths and there’s some things (like cos, Tan, sin) that I have never had to use ever!
School also teaches more than just maths and English, they help teach teams skills, drama, art, sports, discipline, social skills, problem solving, etc etc

Educate yourself on 1950s America and how the USA post WW2 were encouraging kids to not marry at 18 and get a higher education instead. It was driven by a proto neo-liberalism, and the fact that the USA was the industrial production house of the world since Europe was in ruin, and because the cold war was underway and there was a conflict between communism vs capitalism.

Ok? And the Cold War has what to do with schools for exploring your potential being a “capitalist model”? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing. Schools existed in Ancient Egypt, China, India, Sumeria, Africa, S. America, Greece, Rome, and so on down the all ages of human history in every part of the globe and in every type of economy and government. Adults teaching children and young adults. Even Universities existed thousand of years before the USA and capitalism existed. Herodotus founded a university of medicine 3rd. century BC in Alexandria...training young adults to be doctors. University of Athens...founded by Plato 4th c BC, Taixue the Chinese Imperial University founded in 200 BC...need I go on?

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/16/sats-maths-quiz-smarter-11-year-old-key-stage-two-exams-england

So @idkkkk you'd seriously think someone who can pass this doesn't know basic arithmetic?

@Elephantsparade

This has actually hit a raw nerve for me as my son has an SEN and missed out on a school place for a number of years (on top of the pandemic bits that were also missing) and then has been on a part time timetable ever since. He actually is taught the way you suggest. In that he has a 1:1 and they do practical tasks based on his interests and they try to slip some maths in..

It sounds a bit melodramatic but i 'grieve' all the schooling he hasnt had compared to his brother. His options are so narrowed.

You need to understand that knowledge is a life long endeavour. He might not be where other kids are, but that doesn't mean his options are narrow or limited - school is not the end all or be all.

Some climax a little later and that is okay. This is another area where schools are failing, by creating this impression that if you don't succeed now, you are a failure - that's just not true. No one has a monopoly over knowledge, it's open for all to seek, so focus on instilling that seed of curiosity and encouraging him to pursue his interest/potential and he will find his feet.

Learning is never pointless, but sometimes I wonder about what schools might look like if we had more money and a bit of a rethink.

I'm not sure we are entirely sure what schools are trying to achieve any more. And teachers are supposed to fix every problem children have it seems.

"School is not the end all, it should be a starting point for a life long journey of maximising your potential and discovery."

No one has said that it is except you.

@BrieAndChilli

Also that article says half of brits have maths knowledge of a primary school child - most primary school children I know have more than basic maths skills!!! Primary maths skills are more than adequate for normal living eg going to the shops etc. A lot of people won’t ever need to know more than that. I did A -level maths and there’s some things (like cos, Tan, sin) that I have never had to use ever! School also teaches more than just maths and English, they help teach teams skills, drama, art, sports, discipline, social skills, problem solving, etc etc

Exactly, it's pointless, so why bother. Let students explore things that interest them, and teach them HOW to seek, not what to seek.

It always fascinates me that (in my experience) the families that put a high value on education are often those that have come from a background where very few had access to an education of any kind.
These families understand that education is the best route out of poverty.
My grandparents grammar school education in the 1930’s was the making of our families prosperity. Before that their parents left school at 12 and spent their love in the cotton mill.
I’m degree level educated, there is much I have forgotten- I don’t feel any of was a waste of me time. I continue to read and educate myself.

@SleepingStandingUp

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/16/sats-maths-quiz-smarter-11-year-old-key-stage-two-exams-england

So @idkkkk you'd seriously think someone who can pass this doesn't know basic arithmetic?

The issue is large numbers don't pass.

@MerylSqueak

"School is not the end all, it should be a starting point for a life long journey of maximising your potential and discovery."

No one has said that it is except you.

Actually, it's implied e.g. "My child will have a limited future" for instance is assuming that since he failed in school it will follow him for the rest of his life. School and university is the end all for vast sums of poeple, in fact many people on this thread have alluded to it.

Don't they need to be introduced to things to know if they're interested in them? In my experience, children have shifting interests over time, and much of that comes from being introduced to new topics in new ways by their teachers. Not everyone is an autodidact.

I'm wondering where you're getting the money for this life-long journey of discovery and maximising your potential if you're not going to do something so tedious as get a job and work hard at it.

My Mum taught in Grammar Schools and ended up as a Head in two Secondary Moderns over her 30 year career .A bigger advocate for education to all pupils regardless of ability you could never find. However, she has always said there is no point in traditional ideas of Education for some children passed the age of 14. Mum was a
Chemistry teacher. She would be the first to argue that teaching subjects like Chemistry are wasting precious time for some children's Educations . These children need all the time available for to improve their understanding of English/Maths and to learn basic skills as holding a fork and knife correctly paying bills and filling forms in.

So why are forcing children like this whose English and Maths skills are not great at fourteen to a twenty five hour a school week consisting of typically nine GCSE subjects !

idkkkk - you really missed one crucial point about the aim of education, forget about the context for a moment...
Children will learn abstract thinking, concentration and investigate methods that will lead to results. They learn how to ask the right questions, they learn how to interpret their findings and how it relates to the world around them.

Yeh, they might not use or even remember everything they learnt in school, but they will have learnt how to reason, how to communicate objectively and even how to express themselves.