Is school pointless?

[idkkkk]

I want to know what the ladies on this board think about schools. Considering that 1 in 2 Brits don't know basic arithmetic, or grammar, and a lot of the things learnt in school go in one ear and out the other. Yet we are "educated" for 10-15 years on these topics.

Couple that with bullying, and exposure to all sorts of very objectionable and destructive things, is school really what we make it out to be? Are our assumptions about education even valid? Is teaching a teen highly abstract ideas that were conceived by people 2-3 times their age a sensible thing to do?

Because its the skills to learning that you're teaching, not the facts as isolated snippets. So in the above example of cos, tan, sin you're learning problem solving, following procedures similar to coding, how to correct mistakes and start again, double check to confirm results... cos/sin/tan might not be vital but the skills you're learning alongside are.

I think I need all the time tonight for my English skills... I am having a bad night on the keyboard.....

@noblegiraffe

I'm wondering where you're getting the money for this life-long journey of discovery and maximising your potential if you're not going to do something so tedious as get a job and work hard at it.

I used to work, got sick of being tied down to someone else's schedule, so I started a business. I was given the fish, but I lost it. Then I focused on building the net, and now here I am. The best time to really understand things is after 21, not before, at least in my experience.

Are you a "life coach" by any chance?

so I started a business

With only your basic knowledge of reading, writing and arithmetic that you learned in primary school, I assume.

The best time to really understand things is after 21, not before

Ah right, so now they won't be going to school between 11 and 21? No point in learning to build that car if they're not going to really understand it.

When was the last time you actually set foot in a school because as a teacher nothing you’re saying about the current education system rings familiar.

Here's a different view.

My school was my escape from home. Where people treated each other decently. Where I learned enough, where I gained sufficient qualifications to get myself out, and into a different world. It was a blessing.

OP, your view is not something I recognise.

@idkkkk I dont think you have much understanding of complex special needs.

One of my teachers was banging on about math with I was 12/13, and was thoroughly disappointed when I didn't pursue it for university, yet here I am self studying graduate level mathematics.

How very privileged you are. With a primary level of education the vast majority of people will become adults doing menial work. With little knowledge of what their heart apparently truly wants to learn, and no opportunity to quit the menial job to pursue the love of Egyptology they've magically managed to access despite poor literacy and no one telling them Egyptians existed, because they're adults. With rent and kids and bills and a partner about to be made redundant and a parent with dementia and a billion other stuff that life throws at people.

A few teens and young people are self motivated, and have a thirst to learn and find out how to build an engine. The majority don't. GTA and necking vodka down the park are what motivates them.

@noblegiraffe

so I started a business

With only your basic knowledge of reading, writing and arithmetic that you learned in primary school, I assume.

The best time to really understand things is after 21, not before

Ah right, so now they won't be going to school between 11 and 21? No point in learning to build that car if they're not going to really understand it.

You sound butt hurt? Why are you strawmanning again? are you a teacher or something?

Cos, sin and tan are actually useful in professions that use them (like engineering), really not pointless, and useful at school age before going on to apply them at university. Maybe academic skills don't suit everyone but there's a great deal that gets taught in school that we do rely on as a society.

@titchy

One of my teachers was banging on about math with I was 12/13, and was thoroughly disappointed when I didn't pursue it for university, yet here I am self studying graduate level mathematics.

How very privileged you are. With a primary level of education the vast majority of people will become adults doing menial work. With little knowledge of what their heart apparently truly wants to learn, and no opportunity to quit the menial job to pursue the love of Egyptology they've magically managed to access despite poor literacy and no one telling them Egyptians existed, because they're adults. With rent and kids and bills and a partner about to be made redundant and a parent with dementia and a billion other stuff that life throws at people.

A few teens and young people are self motivated, and have a thirst to learn and find out how to build an engine. The majority don't. GTA and necking vodka down the park are what motivates them.

Well, you treat them like kids, you don't discipline them, you spend all your time working (being empowered), you send them to school to hang around with other messed up kids (and they pick up all sorts of negativity), you don't teach them responsibility, broken homes etc etc. The pangs of a dying civilisation.

You sound butt hurt?

You sound 12?

So did you start your business armed only with primary school knowledge, or did you need a bit more than that?

You waxing lyrical about how you are teaching yourself graduate maths presumably having had a normal maths education suggesting that others could be in the same position if they had spent their teens building cars is a bit blinkered.

@noblegiraffe

You sound butt hurt?

You sound 12?

So did you start your business armed only with primary school knowledge, or did you need a bit more than that?

You waxing lyrical about how you are teaching yourself graduate maths presumably having had a normal maths education suggesting that others could be in the same position if they had spent their teens building cars is a bit blinkered.

Maybe I am 12. Well, I don't have a degree if that's what you're asking. Actually, I forgot almost everything I learnt at school. I had to start from scratch with my mathematics studies, and that was a few years ago - It's only because I have an intense passion for other things, and I understand maths is a gateway. We are in the era of the internet. You no longer need to sign up to a university to learn these things - there are plenty of online avenues.

Isn't it interesting that some of the greatest minds in modern times are drop outs ? Not that I'm equating myself with them. It's too bad you are are too rigid and dogmatic. This is one of the few cases where the grass is actually greener on the other side.

Well, I don't have a degree if that's what you're asking

No, I wasn't. But I remember you think that kids should stop learning maths at aged 11 if it doesn't interest them.

Isn't it interesting that some of the greatest minds in modern times are drop outs

How many drop outs do you think are the greatest minds?

You are looking at your own limited view and experience and think it extrapolates to the population.

Out of interest who is funding your journey of lifelong learning and self discovery?

While I don’t disagree there are improvements to be made I don’t really follow your argument.
A report identifies a significant number of adults do not have the numeracy skills expected of an 11 year old - who sets the expectations? how has this been tested? was the research impartial or was it aimed to prove a point? (the article goes on to report the importance of numeracy skills and indicators for links to literacy success). I wouldn’t trust these reports. But let’s say it’s right…
Do you believe your proposal will improve the numeracy rates based on the same testing methodology? I don’t think that is likely as those without an interest in numeracy would never learn it. You then go on to say the basics should still be taught and that the more complex theories should not be taught unless children are interested - again this is removed from the basis of your argument which focuses on the absence of basic numeracy skills.
Again I don’t necessarily disagree (although I think your proposal would not be the optimum way) but the logic in your argument seems flawed.

@noblegiraffe

Well, I don't have a degree if that's what you're asking

No, I wasn't. But I remember you think that kids should stop learning maths at aged 11 if it doesn't interest them.

Isn't it interesting that some of the greatest minds in modern times are drop outs

How many drop outs do you think are the greatest minds?

You are looking at your own limited view and experience and think it extrapolates to the population.

We all project onto the world.

You are yet again strawmanning my arguments.

• 1 in 2 brits struggle with math, let's start there. The reality is most people don't need to know more than the basics when it comes to math. Are you suggesting a writer learn about unit circles and radians ?

• Kids should explore their potential, and the things they enjoy should be used as an entry point

• learning abstract knowledge to pass an exam is stupid. They will for all practical intents forget the bulk of it anyway.

• Knowledge is a lifetime endeavour, the western approach to knowledge is hideous! I think the eastern traditions had perfected this balance. The west is only focused on squeezing every drop of blood out of it population, sorry, I meant empowering them!

• Give them the net, not the fish. Instill critical thinking, logic, reason, philosophy, and curiosity. This is the key difference between us. I believe in truly empowering a person by giving them to tools so they can figure out anything on their own. You are all about spoon feeding them.

Still don't believe me, here is Elon Musk saying the same thing:

Ultimately, what I am writing about spills over into the boundaries of discipline and spirituality. The West has adopted this idea that knowledge is the only thing that matters - not wisdom, not understanding, not nuance, just spoon feeding them knowledge till they are 21, yum.

@Sittingonabench

While I don’t disagree there are improvements to be made I don’t really follow your argument. A report identifies a significant number of adults do not have the numeracy skills expected of an 11 year old - who sets the expectations? how has this been tested? was the research impartial or was it aimed to prove a point? (the article goes on to report the importance of numeracy skills and indicators for links to literacy success). I wouldn’t trust these reports. But let’s say it’s right… Do you believe your proposal will improve the numeracy rates based on the same testing methodology? I don’t think that is likely as those without an interest in numeracy would never learn it. You then go on to say the basics should still be taught and that the more complex theories should not be taught unless children are interested - again this is removed from the basis of your argument which focuses on the absence of basic numeracy skills. Again I don’t necessarily disagree (although I think your proposal would not be the optimum way) but the logic in your argument seems flawed.

The flaw is you assuming that I want to improve math literacy. I reject your presupposition. My argument is that it doesn't work for most people, therefore, pointless. Now, I agree with your underscoring the motives of the test, but anecdotally, I have also discovered that almost everyone I know personally is hideous at math. You can always pick up a camera and head for the streets.

Give them the net, not the fish. Instill critical thinking, logic, reason, philosophy, and curiosity.

I work across a number of schools and this is precisely what all of them aim to do. You seem to believe that your one experience of one school can be generalised across the whole of education. Just because you didn’t succeed at school doesn’t mean that education is at fault.

Crankysaurus - it’s not that trig isn’t useful - it’s just pointless to teach it to someone who is not at least at the level of yr 6 sats plus understanding some algebra and simple geometry too.

It is way more useful to the majority of people to have a firm grasp of fractions, decimals and percentages. unabridged Shakespeare might not benefit who struggled with basic vocabulary and comprehension - even at 14.

In some schools the proportion of kids in 1 year getting 4 and above in both English and maths gcse is below 40%. That’s quite low Given that these are ‘essential’ subjects for many apprenticeships, further study etc. Maybe it’s the exam content that’s not right or maybe the kids need more time or a different way of learning the material?

yet, 15 years later, here I am talking bollocks on the Internet 👍

IdKKKK. By telling posters you don't have a Degree, you have let yourself be open to some people on to silence you !

There are lots of nasty 'Educated' people on here who only think you can have an opinion if you have followed the designated pathway . I.E a Degree or Masters is preferable. If you have P.H.D on here you are up there in 'Heaven' looking down on all mere mortals.

In fact I looked at the small print of Mumsnet. It states please beware that if Original poster does not have a Degree or above, other posters reserve the right to silence or ridicule the original poster !

Are you suggesting a writer learn about unit circles and radians?

You're siloing people a bit here aren't you? Do you think that writers shouldn't write about anything that involves complex maths? Have you read Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton, for example? Or that people who know about radians shouldn't become writers?

You really seem anti-young people getting a broad and balanced curriculum. How do you expect them to become well-rounded and enjoy the philosophical implications of quantum mechanics (or whatever if was) if you have them pigeonholed as writer or nerd?

I have also discovered that almost everyone I know personally is hideous at math.I have also discovered that almost everyone I know personally is hideous at math.

Are you American?