Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

@Stokey , I thought the same when I read the ST article!

Anecdata from 5 or 6 local Independents:

No real change in offers for Maths, Sciences (inc. Natsci), MFL, Classics.

Massive reduction in offers for History(all kinds), Philosophy, HSPS, Theology, English, Fine Arts.

Interesting. Yes, the school I was referring to is named in the article. What I've heard backs up what KingscoteStaff says about certain subjects being more affected than others

@Labobo
More a comment about the shiny things other universities offer while Oxbridge continues to plough its own furrow.
But yes that was my impression of Cambridge at least when DS was there.Something about being swaddled on college life I think. And he went for it socially I'd say. At least judging by the photos of him I. Stalked on social media.

I read the Times article. It does seem like discrimination against Private School children....the research clearly shows that kids with the grades being asked for by Oxbridge perform equally well regardless of whether or not they come from State or Private schools so its not like they are in any way inferior...I agree with the headmaster of Kings College School when he laments the fact that private school kids who have never achieved less than a 9 or an A in public exams can't get into Oxbridge because they have come from a private school.

They didn't choose to go to private school - their parents sent them.

I realise that some state schools are awful and some kids come from challenging backgrounds - in my mind that's a whole different debate.

But I don't see the difference between a child from a private school, one from a grammar school and one from an excellent comprehensive school. Abuse, neglect, bereavement and divorce still happen to kids who go to private school. Being rich doesn't make you immune to mental health problems. Bullying still exists in private schools. Distractions like drugs, alcohol and parties exist in private schools. Plus I am not sure that ALL private school kids have it so easy. Here in London actually getting an 11+ place at one of these super selective private schools comes with a huge amount of pressure and hours and hours of preparation (read some of the mumsnet threads if you don't believe me) - imagine what that feels like for an 10/11 year old who would rather be playing with their mates. They then get to these highly selective schools (sometimes commuting up to an hour each way to get there) and they have the pressure to get perfect grades (sitting on average more GCSEs and A Levels than the average state school kid) while juggling 101 extracurricular clubs, playing 2 musical instruments, playing competitive sport every weekend, doing their Duke of Edinburgh/CCF, participating in charity work ....all the while feeling quite ordinary and unremarkable because they are surrounded by kids who are also all overachieving. Then they get to the end of it all, achieve a set of perfect grades and get told "sorry - you went to private school and therefore all your achievements are worthless because your parents paid for them".

In comparison, I came from a happy family, went to an average comprehensive school with a real mixed bag of kids. I was in all the "top sets" so never had to deal with loads of disruptive behaviour and as far as I remember the teaching was pretty good. Had a great social life. Did my GCSEs and A-Levels and did very well and basked in the glory of being "one of the clever ones". Then I happily trotted off to a RG University. I think I had it pretty easy compared to some of these private school kids I see.

Blame the parents, but don't take it out on the kids.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

In London I'm not sure postcodes necessarily are a good assessment of background particularly if you have parents who work in public sector jobs. The girl who is doing medicine at Cambridge who we know (who didn't get into a super-selective at 11) lives in a 'poor' postcode. However, her parents are both professionals and her father did at least some of his post-graduate studies at Cambridge and has a PhD. That is not unusual.

Also not unusual for a quite a bit of tutoring to be going on out of school and nobody has to declare that on a UCAS form.

I have not read the Times article as not subscribed - but my impression of KCS is that at least the way my mates got into Oxbridge was in part due to school tutors placing calls to admission tutors in Oxdbrige. Am sure that practice is all gone etc...but for years the way they did it was definitely not fair. Not that my friends were not smart, they were but so were my friends from the local state school who did not get in. But friends from Dulwich, KCS etc were drilled beyond belief plus schools had their ways when it came to admissions - which obviously made it all a bit easier. With some of them you sort of thought - you'd have to be really dumb not to pass the Oxbridige tests/interview cos you've been practicing for them for that long.

@tanyatom I am not sure when your information is from but they absolutely does not happen at KCS! This is the sort of ludicrous fallacy that gives private schools a bad name. The kids apply the same way everyone else does and the support is actually no different to support provided by the local (excellent) sixth form college where my DSs goes.... I know because my DN went to KCS for 6th form.

@Whenwillitend159 as I said - it certainly happened with my friends as in them getting into certain specific colleges. Plus they also had soooo much info on what certain colleges/admission tutors were looking for in terms of answers/attitude etc because of just how extensive their links are. However, this was for humanities/social sciences where a lot of this is fairly subjective.

I have really mixed feelings about the don’t blame the kids angle. I got into Oxbridge from a state school myself.

My dds go to a private school but only because they both have mild SEN. Part of me feels it would be unfair for that history of school attendance to be held against them if they apply.

However, I do still agree with @rattusrattus20 - the balance needs to tip slightly less in favour of private schools. It is important that this happens and it must mean fewer offers going to private school children.

Yes, agree Fixhasbigsocks. It has to change, for all of society There is still a way to go, but it's a good start (I say this with a child at a private school). Maybe parents will stop putting so much pressure on the kids now, so it will benefit them too?

@foxhasbigsocks there is a difference between slightly tipping the balance to offers to schools like KCS going from 44 down to 27 over 3 years....while offers are tripling at “super achieving” state schools like Brampton Manor in the same time period. My DD is pretty middling academically and goes to a middling private school. She won’t go to Oxbridge as she is simply not bright enough and her school would never advise or support it. Her private school only sends a couple to Oxbridge every year and in some years none as it’s not selective. The OP asked about “top” private schools and whether or not they are being impacted and the answer is clearly yes...personally I don’t think it’s fair as it looks like Oxbridge is trying to make a point and they know the headline will make them look like they are addressing the issue in a big way by slashing offers to “big name” schools like KCS, Eton etc. In reality they are overlooking some kids who absolutely do deserve a place - how can you say someone with twelve 9s at gcse and 45 point in the IB diploma is not Oxbridge material and yet these are the kids that Oxbridge is rejecting.

@Whenwillitend159 I think the view taken is that you have to offer for potential with state applicants

Even in my day Oxbridge rejected many many straight A applicants.

Even though my kids are likely to be directly disadvantaged on balance I agree with this policy. Inevitably to achieve fairness private school offers will have to come down

I read the Times article this morning too. It provides the data that answer my original question. I am glad that I get that information now before we decide on a secondary school for DS.

A fairer system is good for everyone, and I hope the universities are all striving towards that goal. The combination of a private education, an Oxbridge degree and family connections and support put a small group of young people in a very advantageous position compared to their peers. It is extremely difficult for others to chase up.

Oxbridge should choose the most academically able student they can recruit. I do feel that the best way is for the government to invest in access schemes which targets gifted and talented students early in their secondary education. Contextual offer on its own can never gets the balance totally right.

@foxhasbigsocks I agree with contextual grades and trying to help genuinely disadvantaged kids. I also agree that kids in the lower grade ranges coming from private schools probably have less potential at university than their state schools counterparts (so that’s my DD).... but I don’t agree with penalising kids just because they go to a super selective private school and slashing offers so the “optics” look good when reported in the guardian newspaper.

Ijustwanttoask, I'm sure you know this, but choosing a high performing comprehensive or grammar school (over an independent school (if that's your choice) won't necessarily increase your DC's chances of an Oxbridge offer if you decide not to send them independent

@Feb001

Ijustwanttoask, I'm sure you know this, but choosing a high performing comprehensive or grammar school (over an independent school (if that's your choice) won't necessarily increase your DC's chances of an Oxbridge offer if you decide not to send them independent

Not to me but interested in post. Is that because they are high performing comp / grammar?

@Whenwillitend159

I read the Times article. It does seem like discrimination against Private School children....the research clearly shows that kids with the grades being asked for by Oxbridge perform equally well regardless of whether or not they come from State or Private schools so its not like they are in any way inferior...I agree with the headmaster of Kings College School when he laments the fact that private school kids who have never achieved less than a 9 or an A in public exams can't get into Oxbridge because they have come from a private school.

They didn't choose to go to private school - their parents sent them.

I realise that some state schools are awful and some kids come from challenging backgrounds - in my mind that's a whole different debate.

But I don't see the difference between a child from a private school, one from a grammar school and one from an excellent comprehensive school. Abuse, neglect, bereavement and divorce still happen to kids who go to private school. Being rich doesn't make you immune to mental health problems. Bullying still exists in private schools. Distractions like drugs, alcohol and parties exist in private schools. Plus I am not sure that ALL private school kids have it so easy. Here in London actually getting an 11+ place at one of these super selective private schools comes with a huge amount of pressure and hours and hours of preparation (read some of the mumsnet threads if you don't believe me) - imagine what that feels like for an 10/11 year old who would rather be playing with their mates. They then get to these highly selective schools (sometimes commuting up to an hour each way to get there) and they have the pressure to get perfect grades (sitting on average more GCSEs and A Levels than the average state school kid) while juggling 101 extracurricular clubs, playing 2 musical instruments, playing competitive sport every weekend, doing their Duke of Edinburgh/CCF, participating in charity work ....all the while feeling quite ordinary and unremarkable because they are surrounded by kids who are also all overachieving. Then they get to the end of it all, achieve a set of perfect grades and get told "sorry - you went to private school and therefore all your achievements are worthless because your parents paid for them".

In comparison, I came from a happy family, went to an average comprehensive school with a real mixed bag of kids. I was in all the "top sets" so never had to deal with loads of disruptive behaviour and as far as I remember the teaching was pretty good. Had a great social life. Did my GCSEs and A-Levels and did very well and basked in the glory of being "one of the clever ones". Then I happily trotted off to a RG University. I think I had it pretty easy compared to some of these private school kids I see.

Blame the parents, but don't take it out on the kids.

I hear you re ‘one of the clever ones’ and I’m pondering on this for clever dc who has excellent state v highly academic private offer

Marshabradyo. Yes. These schools would not qualify for contextual offers unless the university states that attending any state school is counted. I don't believe Oxbridge do, but some uni's do. However, it could change over the next 7 years so I wouldn't make any choices now base on 'what if's'.

[quote Whenwillitend159]@tanyatom I am not sure when your information is from but they absolutely does not happen at KCS! This is the sort of ludicrous fallacy that gives private schools a bad name. The kids apply the same way everyone else does and the support is actually no different to support provided by the local (excellent) sixth form college where my DSs goes.... I know because my DN went to KCS for 6th form.[/quote]
Maybe not in your local excellent 6th form, but the majority of state 6th forms do not offer the same support for Oxbridge entrants as independent schools do. I mean in terms of practicing for the exams, interview practice, advice on which college to apply for - they just don't have the budget or staff to do so. This means the state school kids are already disadvantaged in the same way as a kid applying from a state primary to do 11+ is - without additional support they don't have much of a chance as the state schools just don't teach to that curriculum.

@feb001 lol! My DSs has been state all the way as his mum is very anti private school. However his high performing 6th form does do contextual offers because a tiny part of the catchment falls within a very deprived area. He has an offer for Oxford as do a few of his friends who transferred from “super selective” schools for 6th form.... his other offers from RG universities are all lower than his cousin’s at KCS even though his cousin at KCS has better GCSE results (by some way), better predicted grades. Cousin at KCS also scored higher in the entrance test for Oxford but didn’t get an offer. They both come from similar socioeconomic backgrounds but DSs can put down unemployed single parent home on his applications. Not very fair is it? It’s probably a good thing we haven’t been able to have family gatherings lately!!!

Just to add, a parent at one of these top independents mentioned in the article once told me: you pay for 10+ A GCSEs and 3-4 A/A* a-levels, so the schools make damn sure the kids get them! That is advantage.

DS has an offer from a "top" private school. For us, there are good points and bad points about the school. Their high success rate for Oxbridge is one of the good points.

Of course there are many aspects to a school and the education it provides, but I feel the information is helpful before we take the plunge and commit to pay school fees for the next 5/7 years. I just don't want to feel disappointed, or doubt my the school choice if the offer number continue to drop. Going in with eyes open, I guess.

You can always look around for an average comprehensive if you feel that would confer more advantages.

@Ijustwanttoask

DS has an offer from a "top" private school. For us, there are good points and bad points about the school. Their high success rate for Oxbridge is one of the good points.

Of course there are many aspects to a school and the education it provides, but I feel the information is helpful before we take the plunge and commit to pay school fees for the next 5/7 years. I just don't want to feel disappointed, or doubt my the school choice if the offer number continue to drop. Going in with eyes open, I guess.

It’s fine to ask this before committing