Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

I agree @NewModelArmyMayhem18 a large part of the usual Oxbridge cohort is bright but won’t set the world on fire academically.

@Foxhasbigsocks

The problem is that there is no real way of comparing exam/ course difficulty at different institutions. There theoretically is a body that ensures that degree classifications are equivalent across all HE institutions but it's use is questionable. As there is no forensic means of comparing degree difficulty between institutions we are reliant on reputation to maintain employers and societies view on the merits of varying degrees.

You have a strong sadness of your course reputation and I am sure it's correct however it's difficult to quantitate it. Without numbers for things ranking is difficult.

The point that was being made was that do efforts need to be made to protect Oxbridge prestige of there are more inclusive means of entrance.

I might give that book a read as growing up in poverty and succeeding is a classic human narrative. I don't at disparate the real terrible effects of poverty and poor educational opportunities , we live in a dark world, the question would be whether Cambridge as an elite university would be the most appropriate institution.

I think there is question here about how elites form and what is the background of those who go on to be members. The premise of greater meritocracy with greater numbers of state school entrants lies with high profile positions in society still being filled by Oxbridge grads. Will we be seeing future prime ministe r s being educated at Eton and Durham?

Obviously allowing more women into Oxbridge is a fantastic thing but to what degree should Oxbridge continue to reflect society? Is it an aim to allow a certain proportion of pupils from lower socio economic backgrounds in to Oxbridge and how should the aim be realised ?

Sorry fox another autocorrct...means to read...Boniface a strong defence of course reputation.....at least it didn't involve hair.

There is an assumption here that Oxbridge creates elites.

That’s true.

It’s also true that elites support Oxbridge’s mystique by wanting to send their children there and choosing to hire fresh grads into top flight jobs from Oxbridge.

It will be interesting to see what happens when this reinforcing system weakens.

@mids2019

The test is the foundation course. If you pass the foundation course you prove you were capable of acquiring the requisite level and simultaneously fill in the gaps that were caused by the disruption in your education.

It’s really not that polemical in my view.

If the students aren’t actually that able then they won’t gain entrance to the university and the university has said they will help with placements elsewhere instead after the foundation year.

An IQ test for university entry is an awful idea and not at all what I was trying to suggest. However you seemed to be suggesting that BBB meant the students were inherently unable to get AAA and less bright that other students. That’s not what exam grades ever indicate. They are a combination of teaching received, raw intelligence and effort.

@Empressofthemundane

Very true.

In parallel with elite schools losing Oxbridge places we have questions about the hegemony of Oxbridge over elite jobs.

It could be argued that given Oxbridge might be quite low in the private school proportion leagues in a few years the hegemony should be maintained as then you forwarding more state school children into the top jobs.

Whether this occurs is open to debate....

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

There was kid at my school who wasn't overly academic, got mediocre A levels, and with a lot of tutoring blagged his way into Oxford to do PPE. These were the days of 2E offers.

Actually access has improved a hell of a lot since the 90s and it continues to.

However you seemed to be suggesting that BBB meant the students were inherently unable to get AAA and less bright than other students. I'm glad you've said this @LondonGirl83 as I've been thinking the same. It's a convenient narrative to pursue if only to applaud the superior intelligence of one's own high-achieving DC! There must be A grade students who just scraped those results and B grade students who missed out on 3 As by the equivalent very narrow margin. That margin could depend as much on who marked the papers as anything else!

@LondonGirl83

I still thinking difficult to differentiate what portion of an A level award is due to inherent intelligence or the quality (or lack of) teaching quality.

What is known is that the student currently has 3B s and has a possible potential to achieve 3 AAA grades gauged by as yet vague assessment. To my mind this puts a lot of faith in the assessment team and it would be interesting to see the methodology in this.

I think in reality once in the foundation course the student is effectively 'at Cambridge' and it would be rather cruel to allow a student to experience Cambridge life then point then elsewhere. There is no indication that assessment of the certificate would be particularly rigorous and may be simply certification that the course has been attended.

In effect you would be adding a failure to get into Cambridge on top of the effects of extreme disadvantage (despite incredible efforts to achieve 3 BBBs). With 3B s remember opportunities at other similar universities such as Hull (typical 3B tariff) would be available.

I agree with your assessment of A levels, the variable in essence we want to remove is the quality of teaching to make exams truly objective and with a diverse educational spectrum this is difficult. Boris Johnson wishes all our schools to be as good as his so maybe that is the way to achieve this....levelling up as he would term it.

I have read a couple of debates on whether A levels were fit for purpose or do they bias against lower socio economic groups in terms of content which was interesting. A levels seem to be still the 'gold standard' so will be with us for some time.

@mids2019

You say it’s a vague assessment.

It’s a foundation course which is a tried method of assessing attainment equivalent to A-levels and are prevalent at many institutions and have existed for decades.

It’s really not nearly as wishy washy as you are suggesting and there is no good argument I’ve heard why children who have had their education severely disrupted shouldn’t be given the opportunity to prove themselves via a foundation course and get the university education that matches their intellect and work ethic.

Dramatic circumstances outside of children’s control shouldn’t limit the possibilities open to them in a society that believes in meritocracy and social mobility.

@mids2019 rather than suggesting it’s a wishy washy certificate of attendance why not actually look up the information.

The assessment for passing the certificate of higher education involves exams, an extended project and assessed written assignments.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/foundation-year

@LondonGirl83

I don't think any one could disagree with the sentiment of giving everyone regardless of background opportunities to succeed.

I accept the foundation course is examines but the rigour of the examinations is still an unkown. I cannot imagine many on the course would fail as they effectively would have wasted a year of their education (they could have been studying elsewhere during the year) and there are questions about what qualifications they would be left with if they failed (B B B? or greater due to the additional certificate?)

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

There is no perfect assessment system for assesment. The logic above suggests you could squeak 3As and be Oxbridge material or narrowly fail and get 3B s (Hull). Not a great deal of difference.

@mids2019

What exactly is your concern? That the pupils accepted to the foundation course aren't actually intelligent enough for Oxbridge and the tests to pass the foundation aren't rigorous enough and therefore Oxbridge's reputation is going to collapse as a result of these 100 children being let in who who were in care?

You don't have any information to suggest the assessment process is faulty do you? You don't appear to be familiar with it so what's the basis of your fear?

The application for the foundation itself involves a written assessment and interview, its not just BBBs and you're in. The foundation course involves what the universities deem are the appropriate assessments and exams for entry into the university.

Why do you assume it's impossible for the universities to properly select and then assess students?

@SouthLondonMommy

You have a good point about looking at the ability of universities to determine which pupils are going to do well there.

However the use of A levels acts to show there isn't any particular bias introduced and A levels act as an objective standard all can relate to.

I suppose it's perspective but one thing that distinguishes Oxbridge from other universities is that the fact they interview. This is absolutely necessary given the high number of A and A star candidates that could be entrants. This gives the powering you like to admissions tutors to determine who gets in and then you get issues of potential unconscious bias in either direction.

I think the hour long interview (or more) is instructive but an examination qualification summarises the entire academic history of the candidate coupled with a school report from teacher who know the pupil to a much larger extent. I tend to think (personal opinion) assessment should be weighted away from interview to more objective long term measures of ability that are more prone to bias.

In terms of foundation courses it might if course all work and I absolutely support meritocratic access to university.

I suppose the concern is that though small in number Oxbridge places are in great demand and if these are not extra places others will lose out so we have to be sure of the moral basis for this means of selction. I said before such schemes really do have a place in HE but I was just questioning whether Cambridge was the most appropriate place to implement it.

I also was trying to suggest that you have to be careful to maintain the reputation of academic rigour of internal examinations by ensuring the public at large see that all entrants are exceptional as that supports confidence that you have high academic standards as all those sitting are of known ability (given an ever increasing number of 1st and 2:1a given out.

Less prone

Access to the foundation course is interview and written assessment.

Why would Oxford and Cambridge not be appropriate places to implement the scheme while other universities are?

Elite institutions have an essential role to play in breaking entrenched privilege as they are at the epicentre of how the system historically perpetuates itself. No other universities' participation could be nearly as impactful, though all that participate make a difference.

@mids2019 that's for you

SouthLondonMommy

Hard to argue with that and I hope it's true

I think you may be right in that entrenched privilege will be broken at Oxbridge.

However whether entrenched privilege will be broken more generally will have to be seen.

Elite public schools will still be viewed as prestigous and their alumni may rise to great things independent of whether they go to Oxbridge.

I think the acid test will be whether high status positions in society will be filled by oxbridge grads in future

It may be employers that traditionally favour private school alumni will still look for those qualities and we have increasing proportions of non oxbridge grads in professions where this used to be the norm.

The A level profile between Oxbridge and other elite universties doesnt differ too much and given similar academic ability or university entrants we can make the assumption that the degrees are comparable in rigour.

This means elite employers of all kinds will cast their net wider than oxbridge for comparable talent

The meritocratisation of Oxbridge may not fully be propagated to society as a whole.

I think there is a flight to top US universties from private schools and I assume the graduates will come back to the UK to good job positions.

I wonder as Oxbridge falls down leagues of universities with the highest proportion of privately educated pupils people will start to see this as a fall of prestige of the university (perverse I know but prestige in itself is a strange concept)

I don't know if we are undergoing a silent revolution in meritocracy as we dont really do revolutions in this country and entrenched privilege has been around since the inception if the likes of Eton and Oxford (it seems to be quite lodged in this country's psyche)

Oxbridge need to be careful in the protection of their academic reputation as above other institutions (if that is indeed the case currently) and si should be wary of making A level offers to low. As said earlier there are many pupils with As and A stars now so isn't there even more pressure to scrutinise all these candidates more carefully for the 'best of the best'

@SouthLondonMommy

There is no silver bullet. It will hopefully open the door for those from different backgrounds, some of whom may rise to be in positions of power that can influence things like hiring practices etc. Social change takes time.

thetab.com/uk/2021/02/16/these-are-the-unis-targeted-by-the-most-graduate-employers-in-2021-195617

@SouthLondonMommy

There is no one silver bullet but increasing state entrance to Oxford and Cambridge may give benefits in the future.

I think the meritocracy question is complex and I don't think increasing diversity at universities alone is the whole solution. Wealthier families will always find means to give their children advantage - I am not taking a moral stance on this just stating it as a human disposition from time immemorial.

@Soma

That is interesting. I think elite employers still target Oxbridge disproportionately and we still have a significant proportion of high profile positions in society taken by Oxford and Cambridge alumini.

I think the interesting thing will be see if there is a long term trend in employers preferences as Oxbridge intake becomes more balanced.

thetab.com/uk/2021/02/11/revealed-the-unis-who-let-in-the-fewest-state-school-students-194852

thetab.com/uk/2020/11/06/these-are-the-unis-you-shouldve-gone-to-if-you-wanted-to-earn-40k-out-of-uni-181506

Apologies, one of the links didn't work.
thetab.com/uk/2021/02/11/revealed-the-unis-who-let-in-the-fewest-state-school-students-194852

@Soma

Cambridge seems to be dropping down a fair bit. Arts and music are quite precarious careers so may help to be supported by family wealth.

I think one concern would be if people started looking at these tables as a downward table of prestige. I know that is wrong but will people link the number of privately educated pupils that choose these universities with the level of prestige or demand?

The original post of this thread was about falling numbers of elite school pupils at Oxbridge but I wonder if the prestige follows the school to some extent e.g. from the prestigious Westminster school to the prestigious Edinburgh university?

I think there may have been an argument that in yesteryear the prestigious reputation of Oxbridge was supported by the number of pupils from prestigious schools and families of high social status that went there.

Prince Charles (dodgily) went to Cambridge I assume not necessarily for an elite education and increased job prospects but because of the mutual benefits of linking Cambridge to the Monarchy. Prince William also went to another prestigious institution with an ancient pedigree.

So the prestige of an institution may not in every sense be linked to the quality of the learning but to the attendees.

If you consider the amount of knowledge that you take from a degree and use in the workplace it can in actual fact be limited. (I did physics and quite rarely use quantum mechanics and general relativity in my day to day life). So from an employment perspective we are overeducated and employers are looking at the f it of n undergraduate in their business rather than looking to make use of all their knowledge (unless you do medicine or something like it ).

The question going forward is which universities are employers going to target for this fit?

Classics and Norse Studies grads from Oxbridge may not immediately use their knowledge in employment but the general prestige of the degree 'opens doors' (you might even end up running the country).

The question going forward with the more egalitarian Oxbridge is will the same doors be opening as wide of will doors be opening a little wider elsewhere?