Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

Used to work an area related to university admissions. Long term strategy in the sector or was to stimulate number of applications from state schools especially deprived areas as a way of decreasing public school intake without just redirecting places/disregarding grades. Some outreach work started with very young primary school children. That was about 15-20 years ago, so I’d imagine that’s now taking effect properly.

And yes, having spoken to US colleagues at international conferences, with a lot of US universities the endowment is huge and the fundraising operation is a machine. So lots of people get to go for free if they are bright enough, and what is considered low income there is often very different.

i dont just think its lack of ambition on the part of the parents. For example, to get into Oxford you need to go through a very peculiar selection process. I wouldnt expect most parents at private schools to get it but they dont have to -they rely on the private schools. If you come from state school, you need to have been trained/coached for it. Now some state schools do it- my failing state London comp had a 6th form tutor who had been to Oxford and put on special prep classes so actually quite a few kids go in. I would do it without that. I mean even I havent kept up with their admissions process. .am sure I could get my head around as am an academic but parents from private schools dont have to. Then wven if you get in or go for open days ..then frankly Oxbrdige is really weird. It is a bit like Hogwarts ..now If you went to a boarding school or good private then you'll be used to it.But every time I go back for a conference am struck by just how old it all is and frankly old and weird. And it is a bit off putting and I went there l. And people are really posh plus rich...so if you are not then you are a minority

About 17% of those sitting A-levels are private educated and they make up circa 1/3rd of the Oxbridge intake.
According to Oxford University, 62.3% of their UK intake come from the state sector, so 37.7% are private. www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/school-type
Similar figure for Cambridge is 35.9% httpswww.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ug_admissions_statistics_2017_cycle_2.pdf

It would require an extremely ambitious 17 year old to be brave enough to pick a school where they fear they might be the only working class northerner and be socially ostracised.

Nah. If someone wants to study at Oxford, and wins a place, surely they are bright enough to look through the stats and realise there are plenty of working class people there. They may even enjoy mixing with a wider demography of people. Some middle class people are actually nice.

threelittlepandas
So the state schools need to up their game and prep the most able pupils suitably.

@nolanscrack

The question on grammar schools results is a lot less clear cut. At best, the positive impact on final grades is modest. Many bits of research suggest there is no academic advantage at all. It is difficult statistically to unpick (see document below).

The huge amount of additional per pupil spend is how researchers believe private schools obtain their results advantage and no such funding advantage exists for grammar schools which are funded like all other state schools.

Still grammar schools total share of the top grades is far below their share of Oxbridge admissions. All things considered though outreach to high performing students in comps is the most effective approach to countering this as well as encouraging grammars to be more socially inclusive in their admission policies.

I'm not sure if the link below will work but you can google House of Common's Briefing Paper Number 1398 on Jan 2020 Grammar School Statistics

www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiGiKeWgvbuAhUHWsAKHUesBI0QFjAKegQIARAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresearchbriefings.files.parliament.uk%2Fdocuments%2FSN01398%2FSN01398.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1fWWIWl16vdoBWNk4dqhNf

Page 10 of this report shows how many grammar school students in 2016 got what grades relative to pupils in other settings.

www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/426831-candidates-awarded-the-a-grade-at-a-level-in-2016-data.pdf

@houselikeashed

It would require an extremely ambitious 17 year old to be brave enough to pick a school where they fear they might be the only working class northerner and be socially ostracised.

Nah. If someone wants to study at Oxford, and wins a place, surely they are bright enough to look through the stats and realise there are plenty of working class people there. They may even enjoy mixing with a wider demography of people. Some middle class people are actually nice.

There aren't many working class people there though.... State educated doesn't mean working class.

Nah. If someone wants to study at Oxford, and wins a place, surely they are bright enough to look through the stats and realise there are plenty of working class people there. They may even enjoy mixing with a wider demography of people. Some middle class people are actually nice.

Nobody is saying middle class people aren't nice. You're missing the point somewhat.
I have spent years researching this and have spent my entire career working on widening participation projects. We're at a situation where around 50% of entrants to university are first generation students which is great but it's not so great when we look at where they go.
First generation students are two thirds less likely to go to an elite university even when they have the required entry requirements.
When we ask why the response tends to be because they don't think they'll fit in, people like them don't go to places like that, they they don't think they are clever enough ( despite having evidence) to the contrary), they're worried they won't know how to behave or that they will speak differently. Don't underestimate the influence of cultural capital on career related decisions.

[quote Ifailed]About 17% of those sitting A-levels are private educated and they make up circa 1/3rd of the Oxbridge intake.
According to Oxford University, 62.3% of their UK intake come from the state sector, so 37.7% are private. www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/school-type
Similar figure for Cambridge is 35.9% httpswww.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/ug_admissions_statistics_2017_cycle_2.pdf[/quote]
Isn't 36% close to a 1/3rd? It varies year on year but it is roughly around a third between the two schools in recent years @Ifailed

I think both things are important. for example, my school used to be part of a consortium with other state schools taking part in university access schemes...to be fair that was in SWLondon and the other schools say around Tooting wouldntb have been considered failing even back in the 90s. But essentially unis plus schools should work together. They should l,for example, set up prep classes like in private schools because its really not about being bright but being right for the uni. But i think Oxbridge now do lots of summer schemes that never existed in my day. Also some kids dont know that whilst getting into Oxbridge for a BA may be hard...but for an MA is much much easier sp that could be the route in as well.

@houselikeashed

threelittlepandas So the state schools need to up their game and prep the most able pupils suitably.

With a quarter of the resources to do so? That's equitable? @houselikeashed

@TheJerkStore you are absolutely right in your concerns i think.My impression is that elite institutions are still elites. But taking a Marxist reading of the problem- getting more kids into worse hnis but saddled with huge debt is almost worse. It saddles wc kids with debt and keeps them down while the system continues to perpetuate itself and stakes get higher and higher...postgrad degrees, internships etc....i.e.social mobility despite widened participation is worse than ever

@SouthLondonMummy
We're talking about interview prep and reading books that are available from public libraries. Free online resources. Also local people give up their time for free to come and talk to students - if they are asked to do so.

@houselikeashed

I think Oxbridge is doing what the should which is outreach and encouraging capable students to apply who otherwise might not think the school was culturally for them. Oxbridge have acknowledged this is a problem in why more able working class and minority students don't apply and are doing things to address it.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Do you think they shouldn't be engaging in these outreach efforts or that kids shouldn't feel culturally intimidated by historically socially exclusive elite schools?

@houselikeashed or are you against contextual offers which is the other way the Oxbridge Universities are trying to increase state school participation, particularly from the poorest and least represented groups at the unviersity?

SouthLondonMommy

I honestly don't understand why pupils are still intimidated. We're talking about bright young people here. I also think state schools should be more pro active in prepping/encouraging the pupils who stand a chance of going to Oxbridge. Rather than the uni's having to do all the outreach.

@houselikeashed

Okay, however, you don't need to understand why they feel this way for it to be true ,which it is, based on lots of data and research.

The universities recognise the data is true and are acting accordingly.

Schools do their part but their budgets are extremely stretched and universities understand the role they have in helping shape a more equitable society given the outsized position in British society they have.

The pupils know they are bright, because they did well in GCSE's and are predicted A's / A*s for their academic A level subjects. But they still don't think they are worthy of a place at Oxbridge? Surely the schools should be filling these pupils with aspirations and showing them about all the possible routes open to them. Is this not what teachers do?

cross post.

I should say the disparity is also regional not just class based.

@houselikeashed

SouthLondonMommy

I honestly don't understand why pupils are still intimidated. We're talking about bright young people here. I also think state schools should be more pro active in prepping/encouraging the pupils who stand a chance of going to Oxbridge. Rather than the uni's having to do all the outreach.

Lucky for you that you don't understand why someone would feel intimidated.

But they do. It's a fact which is supported by research.

You are assuming that everyone has the same social, cultural and economic capital when that's just not true.

You are assuming that parents have the ability (and desires) to instil confidence, ambition and aspirations in their children - they don't.

You're assuming that all young people have the time and ability to take themselves off to a public library and figure out how to make a successful application to an elite university ( or any university) - why do universities bother having outreach teams and why is good careers advice vital?

Representation matters a lot. It is very hard for people to imagine themselves doing something that they don't see people like them doing. I know that must be hard to understand for some but its very, very real and true across every aspect of life, not just Oxbridge admissions.

How much do state schools help students for next stage?

Primary state is obviously nothing in terms of switching sectors, eg specific exam prep.

But a state comp I imagine would do a bit more?

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

Marsha As a business. I have worked at other independent schools which were struggling. It’s a lot of fur coat and no knickers, if you know what I mean. Classrooms had holes in the roof (not the ones on the tour) and I paid for books out of my own pocket. The children got a good education as they were in very small classes but there was no money for the extras you might as well get if you choose private. From what I hear, London private schools are usually financially secure and you have to draw circles outwards so the further away from London you are, the less financially secure schools will be (with big name players and wealthier cities like York perhaps protected).

It’s a shame you can’t visit as your child would get a feel for which they like best (it’s not a given they all the public schools - I heard a child describe ours as spooky ).

Thanks. Luckily he went there for the ISEB test and liked the buildings but didn’t see much. Commented that they had a whole building for art etc which he loved.

The state is a quite nice old building too which is better than some not so nice looking ones out there.

@MarshaBradyo

How much do state schools help students for next stage?

Primary state is obviously nothing in terms of switching sectors, eg specific exam prep.

But a state comp I imagine would do a bit more?

It varies tremendously and as you'd expect is often a function of the demographics of the intake which is part of the problem as well.