Are top private schools getting fewer oxbridge offers?

[Ijustwanttoask]

Just read in the papers about the drop in Oxbridge offers to Eton in the last few years. Is there a same trend for other big name public schools and top London day schools too?

In the past years, these schools generally happily announce the numbers of Oxbridge offers they get around this time of the year but I haven't seen much for 2021.

* Title edited by MNHQ by request* **

So why is it so wrong of Oxbridge to take these brighter pupils?

It's not wrong. However, we need to recognise the advantage going to an independent school gives you.
Nobody is saying that those who attend an independent school aren't bright. We're just saying that there are bright pupils at state schools too who are missing out on attending elite universities because they don't go to the 'right' school.

@KathySeldon it’s two issues. More private school students apply. There are many state schools students with the grades that don’t apply which is why outreach is necessary and is a big part of what is being done.

The contextual offers just level the playing field. Suggesting that rich parents can buy a better education for their kids and then monopolise higher education unless the government quadruples education spending is ridiculous.

The data proves private school kids only do better because of the extra resources at private schools. Once at university state school kids outperform them like for like. Rich parents are essentially buying higher grades and locking less well off children out of accessing top higher education opportunities which simply isn’t equitable.

And the reason why it is wrong - because thats lazy on the part of unis. It's all very well for us academics not to care about students or society - but the British public should demand that top unis get top students for the good of society. Unis by themselves wont do that (unless forced to by the government - but thats another story). The UK is being failed together with large swathes of smart kids who dont come from private schools. The problem thoug is that unis are currently mostly being motivated by research, then cash......and only later by any sense of societal responsibility.

Unis will continue to select the best students from all settings including private schools. It’s just that they’ll take into account how relatively easy or difficult the grades were to achieve based on the setting. It’s much easier to get an A at a private school than in the state sector and particularly if you are also a deprived student with no where suitable to study etc

Why do state school kids not want to go to Oxford? Isn't it about 50/50 private/state kids now?

Oxford is about 62-63% state school students (including grammar).

However, state school students get about 75% of the top grades at A-level required for Oxford (see the link below).

There are lots of people who are intimidated by Oxbridge culturally rather than academically. They feel that it wouldn't be welcoming or comfortable for them to attend. Minorities and northerners are particularly under-represented. Its all linked to the class system really. Oxford know this and some of their efforts are detailed at the 2nd link.

www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-statistics/undergraduate-students/current/school-type

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-01-07-more-black-british-students-ever-choosing-oxford

@houselikeashed

Why do state school kids not want to go to Oxford? Isn't it about 50/50 private/state kids now?

Because they don't think they'll fit in. I've done quite a lot of research on why people choose to go to university (or not)and which university they choose. I've lost count how many times I've heard - people like me don't go to places like that.

Cambridge is about 70% state educated now

What’s the split between grammar and non grammar for state at Oxford / Cambridge does anyone know?

I would need to look it up bit I understand that the grammar split is even more disproportionate than the independent rate.

Contextual offers are there to further help those who are just as capable but don't have the grades because the circumstances in which they attained their education.

Its already proven that state students outperform private school students with the same grades anyway so this is more than fair.

Ok thanks, our options are a more selective independent in London or very good comprehensive. I don’t think destination for latter splits it down though, just says proportion to university.

Grammar represents about 20% of the intake at Oxford (can't remember for Cambridge).

Grammar schools make up 5% of schools but its not as clear cut how much they are overrepresented as they are as its more complicated than with private schools.

About 17% of those sitting A-levels are private educated and they make up circa 1/3rd of the Oxbridge intake.

Sorry for all the typos! Kids jumping all over me while I'm typing but I hope its clear enough.

@TheJerkStore and they aren’t wrong! I went from a state school and felt totally out of place

[quote IdesMarchof]@TheJerkStore and they aren’t wrong! I went from a state school and felt totally out of place[/quote]
Student - Institutional fit is a thing! It can have a huge impact on the student experience.

@MarshaBradyo
Look beyond the academics though. As I said, I went to an (academic) state school, my family attend state schools but I work in an independent school. The massive difference for me are the activities and facilities offered. There are sports professionals for games lessons; musicians and artists in residence; theatres which are better than many in the West End; visiting speakers who are household names. Some state schools offer this kind of experience but many don’t and these are the things which give polish and confidence. If you move beyond a focus on Oxford and Cambridge and look at Ivy League colleges (and in interviews later on) these things count for a lot. Obviously make sure your chosen independent school is not ‘scraping by’. I am referencing the well-known public schools.

Academically, teachers all train at the same colleges so the advantage really lies with smaller classes - and the advantages gained by that disappear if contextual offers are made 🙂

I still think the independent school children will start to put other institutions down as their first choice though. They ain’t daft and won’t keep flogging a dead horse. This will lead to continued social division as the well-known networking opportunities move elsewhere. I say this as as supporter of reasonable contextual offers!

Controversial thought here - might the "I won't fit in" idea be created by lack of ambition and self confidence? These things can be instilled by parents.
If a parent is encouraging their child that they are capable to be great, then why would they think they wouldn't fit in?

Maybe parents have something to do with this as well. Not just education settings.
eg - I once talked to a group of 3 pupils in a very deprived area. I asked what they wanted to do as a career. One had clear ideas to sell high end cars "my mum says there's nothing to stop me doing whatever I want to do", another wanted to be a fashion designer "but my dad throws my drawings away", and the other didn't know. "Probably work in Tesco's or somewhere my mum says".
I've no doubt the first pupil is doing pretty well now. I hope to God the second child survived her terribly difficult family life, and I do wonder what the third pupil is doing now.

Parents can help change the inequality at top universities buy instilling confidence and self worth into their children.

@houselikeashed It certainly is partly to do with one's parents but should only pupils with ambitious parents do well in life? People who are successful give their children the confidence that they deserve and will be successful. That's partly how privilege perpetuates itself.

It would require an extremely ambitious 17 year old to be brave enough to pick a school where they fear they might be the only working class northerner and be socially ostracised. Its not an obstacle faced by middle class children who often see top universities as their birthright!

That's why outreach is a significant part of what Oxbridge is doing to address the issue.

@SouthLondonMommy

Grammar represents about 20% of the intake at Oxford (can't remember for Cambridge).

Grammar schools make up 5% of schools but its not as clear cut how much they are overrepresented as they are as its more complicated than with private schools.

About 17% of those sitting A-levels are private educated and they make up circa 1/3rd of the Oxbridge intake.

Can you explain,regarding Grammars why its not clear cut and why its more complicated than private schools? Thanks.

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@MarshaBradyo
Look beyond the academics though. As I said, I went to an (academic) state school, my family attend state schools but I work in an independent school. The massive difference for me are the activities and facilities offered. There are sports professionals for games lessons; musicians and artists in residence; theatres which are better than many in the West End; visiting speakers who are household names. Some state schools offer this kind of experience but many don’t and these are the things which give polish and confidence. If you move beyond a focus on Oxford and Cambridge and look at Ivy League colleges (and in interviews later on) these things count for a lot. Obviously make sure your chosen independent school is not ‘scraping by’. I am referencing the well-known public schools.

Academically, teachers all train at the same colleges so the advantage really lies with smaller classes - and the advantages gained by that disappear if contextual offers are made 🙂

I still think the independent school children will start to put other institutions down as their first choice though. They ain’t daft and won’t keep flogging a dead horse. This will lead to continued social division as the well-known networking opportunities move elsewhere. I say this as as supporter of reasonable contextual offers![/quote]
Thanks Bustopher I’m intrigued by the scraping by comment! Do you mean financially as a business or by intake or something I haven’t thought of?

I’m happy to say school as have on other threads although it probably won’t mean much unless you know SE London independents.

Everything is pointing to taking place, he did go to a very mixed state primary so I have very good thoughts about state atm for the teaching that got him in, even without prep or tutor. But we’ll likely take it. I also had heart set on the state that’s hard to get in to due to catchment (but not selective) which has good teaching, but as you say the extras are very good. And I can’t see leavers’ destination for state I couldn’t confidentially say any went to Oxford / Cambridge or not.

I did alright. Mixed with lots from private school, who were mostly lovely, as well as loads of different nationalities at top uni. Same in career. Passing on prejudices also needs to be countered. My two are both now at inde schools to suit their individual needs, have also spent years in state primary and will likely go state for sixth form.

@houselikeashed

Controversial thought here - might the "I won't fit in" idea be created by lack of ambition and self confidence? These things can be instilled by parents. If a parent is encouraging their child that they are capable to be great, then why would they think they wouldn't fit in? Maybe parents have something to do with this as well. Not just education settings. eg - I once talked to a group of 3 pupils in a very deprived area. I asked what they wanted to do as a career. One had clear ideas to sell high end cars "my mum says there's nothing to stop me doing whatever I want to do", another wanted to be a fashion designer "but my dad throws my drawings away", and the other didn't know. "Probably work in Tesco's or somewhere my mum says". I've no doubt the first pupil is doing pretty well now. I hope to God the second child survived her terribly difficult family life, and I do wonder what the third pupil is doing now. Parents can help change the inequality at top universities buy instilling confidence and self worth into their children.

It's not just schools. Parents play a huge part - your parents occupation and education is a huge predictor of future attainment. It's to do with social, cultural and economic capital- all of which is developed by our own experiences.

Marsha
As a business. I have worked at other independent schools which were struggling. It’s a lot of fur coat and no knickers, if you know what I mean. Classrooms had holes in the roof (not the ones on the tour) and I paid for books out of my own pocket. The children got a good education as they were in very small classes but there was no money for the extras you might as well get if you choose private. From what I hear, London private schools are usually financially secure and you have to draw circles outwards so the further away from London you are, the less financially secure schools will be (with big name players and wealthier cities like York perhaps protected).

It’s a shame you can’t visit as your child would get a feel for which they like best (it’s not a given they all the public schools - I heard a child describe ours as spooky ).

As for parents preparing their children for university. That only works if they know how to.
Many don't