Withholding fees for now - anyone else?

[Chocstar]

My DC attend a prep school and I've been so utterly disappointed by the provision so far that I am holding back from paying the term's fees at present. I don't think the school is providing any work in a way that is engaging in any way shape or form. Just wondering if anyone else has held back paying this term's fees for now for these reasons?

@WhyCantIthinkOfAgoodOne What you've described is exactly why I think schools ought to play fair at this time and why I hate those schools that are taking the pee. I am not paying for an education, I want to bet that I am much more qualified than many of my children's teachers. There are also many online resources these days that I could probably put together a learning programme (i.e curriculum content) to rival some schools. And besides I can send my children to my nearest school if the curriculum was all I was interested in. What I am paying for are experiences the schools provide which I will never ever be able to provide my children. Those are experiences we deeply value and thus we are paying for them. Also them being at school allows me to work. I value that a great deal too because being able to work offers me options in life. That my children can't have those experiences currently and that I am unable to work partly because the children need my laptop for online classes and I have to supervise their school work all day should be acknowledged by the school and rewarded. Unfortunately, some schools have failed to acknowledge this and it has been more about guarding their surpluses. (I am speaking about one child's school now, not all.) I am betting @Chocstar's complaint is probably because she is feeling like I am. Are are our children just numbers on a balance sheet or do they truly care about what they are offering them?

Unless there is a quality clause in your contract you can't withhold money.
You maybe able to terminate the contract with less notice if you have had repeated issues... check your contract there will be information there about disputes.

This will mean moving your dc so you may want to think about your options...

or do they truly care about what they are offering them?

Yes they do.

MyCruiseControl and what you've described is exactly why schools can't provide what they usually would at this time.

They're not allowed to be open. It's not that they're not 'playing fair' it's that they are not permitted to be open.

It's not their fault that families are having to share devices and that they can't provide their usual childcare services so that parents can work free from interruptions by their children.

If schools reduced their fees dramatically, they would have to let staff go and quite soon wouldn't be able to pay rates/utility bills/insurances etc.

Trying to provide the best education they can in the circumstances while trying to remain viable as an educational establishment is 'playing fair'.

That's exactly what it is.

Tbh. you sound pissed off about how the pandemic is negatively affecting you and your family (fair enough) in terms of you not being able to work and not having access to the laptop that you need.

Fair enough, but none, none of this is the school's fault.

My children are in state schools are in addition to the curriculum they were doing drama rehearsals for a Shakespeare production, playing in ensembles and sports teams, dance classes, swimming lessons, seeing their friends every day, enjoying going to and from school by themselves, etc etc.

None of this can happen now. Not because the schools 'don't care' but because we're in the middle of a global pandemic.

Seriously, is there anything that MN can't find teachers and schools to blame for?

I think you're going to have to pay, but can see why you wouldn't want to! We've got 25% off and they're having live online lessons with their teachers, the day is shorter but it's good so far.

@Bflat I didn't say it is their fault. I just think that some independent schools I am aware of have decided this pandemic isn't their fault and therefore they shouldn't make an effort. I wouldn't mind to be honest but they also think we should pay them full fees and they will decide later whether or not to give us some money back. Well that doesn't sit well with me. If you read my original post you will find that I've commended state schools in all this. Perhaps some independent schools didn't have as much warning as state schools but the state schools seem much more prepared and have outperformed many many independents.

Can I Just ask if those advocating not paying fees are saying that they have or advocate immediately withdrawing their children from the school? Or are they suggesting they want their children to continue with subs-standard provision?

You cannot have it both ways - refuse to pay and expect to receive the adjusted service now, plus return to the normal service when it resumes. Or are those objectors expecting to not pay and still be at the school come the return? MMm.

It is coming across as I mentioned earlier, that some parents are annoyed with schools because their children are now at home, it is interfering with them getting on with their work and the fact they need parental support to work or access to IT that might be used by parents. None of this is the fault of schools. They would much rather be educating the children in the normal way, but the government has said they must close.

Schools are not responsible for keeping children out of their parents hair, so they can work their usual hours. They are responsible for providing an educational them.

In fact lots of schools have tried to recognise the difficulties families face in this time. One of the reasons why most schools don't schedule 8-4 live facing lessons, is they know many families need to retain flexibility about when children work or have access to IT. Some people work shifts for the NHS and need to sleep in the morning, so can't support primary learning. Some families are sharing laptops (as mentioned upthread) and so having work sent which can be done at a time to suit the family, everyone can access the IT when they need to.

Schools cannot provide the usual service in the usual way. That doesn't make them in conflict with the contract and mean fees should be withheld. They can provide an on-going education enabling children to make progress and carry on when they return to school. Many are providing extra curricular and enrichment support and pastoral care too. It's not the same as 2 hours of Games on a Wednesaday afternoon, or a play rehearsal after school - these do require people to be face to face which clearly isn't possible.

But schools are finding now that quality education can take forms they hadn't thought of before. Teachers are finding ways to produce resources and use IT to interact with students which is meaningful a nd makes progress. That sounds like a decent and quality education to me. And given people want to return to the normal fee paying education later, they need to accept that what is provided now just can't and won't be exactly the same as before. Most people grasp this, as it's not hard to see.

If you aren't happy (and some sound furious with their schools) then you really should give notice and find somewhere better - as you are clear that many other places are offering something much better. You're right that it's daft to be paying for something sub standard and if your schools are sub standard, the you should leave. Of course you will probably owe them money, but Insuspect some people won't think schools are owed their contractual notice periods or fees they are owed and that just vanishing is perfectly acceptable.

Again, tell the school what your issues are. Tell them what you expect to be different. If you're not happy go through the right process and withdraw as you would at anytime. And good luck with finding the perfect provision at this time.

There seems to be quite a difference between what schools have provided regardless of sector.

I imagine that factors like how much support schools have been able to provide to increase the technological confidence of staff, the caring commitments of staff, and staff sickness are more key than whether individuals schools care or not.

Many teachers are in exactly the home situation you describe. Having their own children to look after/try to educate while sharing devices. It's hard, isn't it?

State schools, I think like independents, had a few days notice of closures with no fixed time frame. As I mentioned earlier, they found on on the morning of the day that they closed who were designated key workers so could get an idea of how many children they needed to provide care to.

Yes, from my experience the state sector has been amazing. I can't comment on the private.

MYCeuise, what have your school said when you have contacted them about your concerns? What exactly do you want them to provide that they aren't at the moment? Are you planning to withdraw because of your disatisfaction with service and value for money?

@WombatChocolate My children were already leaving at the end of the year, moving to new schools in September. I have no problem paying the fees. One child's school has been brilliant whereas the other has been lacklustre. What's annoying me is that the bigger, more moneyed school is the lacklustre one. At the start, I felt they were dictating to us, telling parents what they were going to do. However, their tone has changed greatly and I think they've probably had enough feedback to realise that parents don't owe them fees but will pay them because they are committed to giving their children the best they can afford. To be fair to them they did say they will help as many people who have financial issues and to be honest, it is on that basis that I paid. They probably couldn't continue to provide bursaries if we all rebelled and said we wanted lots of money back. They've said we will be entitled to some money back at the end of the school year and they won't raise fees in 2021.

Interesting. Fee paying schools so gave to be careful about how they communicate with parents.
I think this has been a really hard one. There have been some reports of schools saying everyone must pay all of the full fee or willbbewithdrawn from the roll and not allowed back in September. Clearly didn't go down well....but v unusual.

Most schools know that the consequences of this virus could be long lasting. They know that they really do need to protect their fee income if there is to be a school in future. That isn't just about protecting the jobs of the staff but also believing in the education that they provide and taking pride in it. I think most schools and most teachers do care about the children and their education and it really isn't just about money for its own sake. There has to be and has been a fine line drawn between protecting fee income to protect the school into the future, and acknowledging parental requests for reductions without being bullied by parents. Some parents can be rate he bullying and I think some of the smaller, less successful schools (if they are day schools) that have given big discounts of over 30% have been bullied by parents ....and will quickly find it hard to continue with such a reduced income. Because their numbers were vulnerable anyway, they caved to pressure to cut fees to stop people leaving ...but it brings their end nearer anyway.

Many of the big schools have given 10-15%. They have furloughed lots of admin staff and shelved building plans which aren't already committed to, but they know that they have to have revenue not just for teacher salaries now but other costs of this term and the future which can't be avoided if you are to provide the education level people expect if they pay the fees. If they can't provide it in a year or 2 years, it will all have been a waste of time anyway.

Many schools are providing great remote experiences and improving daily. Adapting isn't instantaneous and those who think 3 weeks should have been enough to have a whole different system of delivery and high skill level in it, to fully reproduce what happens in schools aren't in the real world. But many are learning and improving and are already delivering something great and will get even better very quickly. Even a week or two using something like Teams can make a big difference. Lots of schools are offering an amount of live lessons to provide both academic teaching, but also pastoral support. They are also producing quality resources and setting up flexible timetables to allow children and families to plan this work around the other demands of home. They are also offering enrichments suggestions, careers support, bridging programmes for Yr 11 students to A Level and yr13 students to uni. These bridging programmes have been produced from scratch. It WA sexpected these students would be revising at school for exams, but whole new programmes are being developed and delivered in many places. Many staff have worked hours far in excess of their normal hours and worked most of the Easter holiday to be ready for the new term. A lot of it is behind the scenes and parents might not know about it, but it has to happen for what is delivered to happen. So,e people seem to think the resources or lessons or systems just magically appear. They don't and no school could have been expected to be ready to reach the whole school remotely weeks before - the infrastructure and planning needed is far in excess of what many people realise, plus it really W as the the case that there was lots of notice that schools were definitely going to close.

Anyway, I'm sorry the communication was poor from your school and you felt it was high-handed. Are you able to cut them a bit of slack about that - think maybe the communications had to be put together very quickly, or the school was scared or having a knee jerk reaction and didn't get it quite right? Have a couple of pieces of poor communication ruined your view of the school? Yes, of course it would have been better if they hadn't happened, but can't most parents move beyond that at this time and aren't most people cutting others a bit of slack and 'bearing with' as MoneySavingExpert Martin Lewis keeps calling on people to do - not to insist on their monetary rights to the letter of the law, but to see exceptional circumstances and to just be a little flexible and allow a little time?

You were leaving anyway - not sure if that's because you were at the end of a phase or unhappy - but perhaps that too colours your view of how the school is handling things a little bit too?

I guess money back at the end of the school year is a way of handling cash flow. They need the money right now, but will have a bit more flexibility in a few months. Lots of businesses are asking for similar and lots of customers understand and are trying to accommodate, knowing it is hard for business.

I think most schools are genuinely being good with those who find themselves in financial difficulties too. They want to do that. However, it's only possible if most people pay, and when those who can pay start demanding huge reductions or refuse to pay fees, as in the title of this thread, no wonder the schools feel anxious and worried. Unfortunately, a small number would demand huge reductions no matter what service was being provided. Fortunately, in reality, most people have just got on and paid up if able, feeling a bit disappointed that their kids aren't having the school experience, but knowing it's just not possible. And schools are then able to help some people.

It must have been scary for Bursars waiting for the first day of term and fees coming in. Although they will have allamsked people to contact them in facing difficulties, they wouldn't have known how much was going to come in that day or if they would be facing major major problems or rather smaller ones. The buildings have closed but the service carries on.

30% is a huge discount. Both mine and my husband’s school are offering 10% which is effectively the saving they’re making by being largely shut. Your attitude is pretty immature and as the other posters have said you are obliged to pay.

All the "contract lawyers" coming out the wood work to add their two pence as to whether schools contracts are binding or in breach, but without actually A)being trained in contract law, B)seeing the contract, C)understanding how current circumstances impact contracts,
The good will of advising someone to not pay because the school are "breaching their contract", may very well come back and bite people very hard when they dont have a school place in Sept or are chased for monies owed...

I’m not surprised you and your DH are teachers

You appear to have no grasp of how businesses and contract law operates

* I think they've probably had enough feedback to realise that parents don't owe them fees but will pay them because they are committed to giving their children the best they can afford. T*

But the parents do “owe them”

LittleFoxKit tbf, most people are saying of course you need to pay fees due, and speak to the school if you're having financial difficulties in doing so.

It must be very disappointing to have paid thousands for your child's education, only to have all the 'extra' experiences that private schools can provide eg smaller on site classes, excellent extra curricular, trips etc not being available at the moment, and likely not for the rest of the term.

The only people who saw this coming were insurance companies, as they make sure that they include force majeure in every contract.

Mycruisecontrol. "that I am unable to work partly because the children need my laptop for online classes and I have to supervise their school work all day should be acknowledged by the school and rewarded.

Out of interest, you children do not have PC/laptop/iPad for their home work? Strange for somebody who seem so concerned about their education. I am sure the independent school would provide the tools if you ask.

You seem to expect a lot from schools. The term just started and some do have 'teething' problems. There is a lot to take in for everybody. I do not think parents should be expecting reward for supervising the school work in current circumstances. As rightly said above giving advice about the breaching of the contact without seeing the said contract is an unwise move. 30% discount is a very good one and fees should be paid in full.

The quote above from MyCruiseControl is exactly what has annoyed lots of parents - they don't want to supervise their children all day - the lockdown consequence of this occurring and made them cross. And who can they blame for it all - the schools, because usually they do the supervision and get paid for it.

A lot of the annoyance and irritation isn't about education and the quality of education. It's about the fact that parents' work is disrupted and their lives are disrupted and that they are having to play a bigger role in education than usually. I can see these things are all annoying. However there cannot be 'reward' for these inconveniences in financial terms from the school. However, I think in reality, a lot of the angst isn't actually education related because most people struggle to say what in inadequate exactly about the education being provided, given the circumstances.

School fees vary hugely. So some schools might be asking parents for £12k this term, even after discounts have been offered for boarding etc. Others might be asking for £3k or less.

Presumably the big name schools offer vast amounts of stuff usually and great education. The smaller and cheaper independents might be offering a great education too, but the facilities etc will certainly be less. All the schools which are good (including state schools) might be offering a really good remote learning experience, although all will impact parents and for younger children require parental input.

It probably isn't possible to say the top school charging £12k is pricing 4x the level of service than the small school charging £3k at the moment, or multiple times the £0k that the really great state school is charging. So at the moment, it's not just about paying for exactly you are receiving. The fees people are asked for this term reflect the fees they paid last term and service they were paying for then, plus the fees and service they want to still be available when schools return. The level of fee isn't just about what is received at this exact point but about that fee in the broader and longer term context of a much longer education in that school rather than just this term. If you like, those paying £12k are missing out on more of the fab things the school usually offers...but they had them before and they will have them in future too.

@WombatChocolate I think to be fair parents are annoyed just at the quality of provision and that also impacts the level of supervision required by them as parents. My DC's prep basically do a full school day so the kids don't require much help from me. They log on read what work they need to do and ask their teachers on google meet if they have questions. Other schools seem to be providing a lot less and it's making parents at those schools annoyed.

To be fair our prep has enough teachers that don't have young kids at home to make this possible (I noticed it's mainly the younger teachers with kids to look after themselves who have been furloughed). If a school didn't have this luxury or had teachers without reliable internet access at home it may simply not be possible but I can see why people would be frustrated when kids at other schools are getting a better quality of provision than their kids.

@LittleFoxKit My friend IS a lawyer and her school are in breach of contract as it refers to the provision of teaching of which she has had none. She has paid her fees so there is no issue with her children moving to the new school. What she has done is asked for the one term notice to be waived citing breach of contract.

Zodlebud so your friend's children's independent school is providing absolutely no teaching input for children?

None at all?