Corbyn, vat, private schools

[NoisingUpNissan]

So... Just worried about corbyn and private schools.

I'm naturally labour but couldn't vote for him with this.

We have two kids in prep, couldn't really afford any extra cash. As it stands we have a leaking bathroom (no bath for a year) and old unreliable shitty car, certainly not entitled or priveledged people. Not that it should matter.

Very annoyed as they are only there because ASD and they had 33 kids in their classes!

So, just wondering... Does anybody think this is a real risk?

I don't care if I come across as being all out for myself, I'm all out for my kids. My son is just too autistic to deal with a big class size and needs the extra work as he's v bright.

What about if you pay for a house that meets your needs before you have kids and then the local school becomes great ?

Then you’d be very lucky.

What if you pay extra for a great catchment and by the time your kids go there the place is in special measures

Then you’d be very unlucky.

My DS's indie gave one of the local comprehensives several competition K2 kayaks and now they are the only maintained school in the UK that enters their Y12s into the Devizes Westminster canoe marathon each year; they share training commitments and have regular fixtures where they race each other. It does depend on the comprehensive school's teachers being prepared to find extra time to drive the minibus to the training point, an hour away and another back, after lessons finish. I can't say about rowing and lacrosse; neither is played in state or private locally.

But I do think it would be great if every independent offered interested nearby state schools the opportunity to study economics/humanities or classics subjects to interested sixth formers within catchment, and simultaneously offered to help the state teachers with resources, lesson plans, enrichment and training. The student numbers are not likely to be huge.

Bertrand I’m surprised your not asking for more! I doubt many independent schools would object to what you’re suggesting. I do know that some independent schools have offered some of the things you suggest only to for their offers to be declined. Some state schools seem to be insulted by any offers from the independent sector.

“simultaneously offered to help the state teachers with resources, lesson plans, enrichment and training”
Are you suggesting that state school teachers could learn about teaching from private school teachers??? Lesson planning???? Wow.

I can’t believe it would ever actually happen. Instinctively think private schools are divisive but then we bought house in catchment of excellent state single sex school and pay for tutors so no leg to stand on really.

Incidentally, I do wonder what private schools think they could offer to the lower sets at state schools. Whenever it’s discussed it always seems to be the top sets who will benefit. But Mumsnet generally thinks education should be geared to the high achievers.

You seem to assume @BertrandRussell that private schools are all just educating the cream at the top. This is very far from the truth. I both went to private school and send my kids to private school and I can tell you a few things that you might find illuminating.

1. Not all kids that go to private school are either naturally bright or tutored up to their eyeballs. The ones that go to selective schools can be, because the competition is fierce and entrance tests rigorous (they have their own 11+ tests in Year 6 and something far more onerous at 13+ called Common Entrance, which includes all the subjects, not just maths, English and VR). However, there are many small private schools out there that cater to DC who benefit hugely from the small classes, SEN provision and not having to adhere precisely to the National Curriculum. Many of those DC are not especially bright, or they have significant SEN that makes it really hard to access the curriculum when they're one of 30 DC with one overstretched teacher. Many parents scrimp and save and go without in order to get their DC a place. So don't assume that private schools can only work with bright kids, they don't.

2. Following on from the above comment, and perhaps obvious, but I feel it needs saying anyway - not all private schools are like Eton. There is a huge difference between the famous ones, like Eton, Harrow, Marlborough, Charterhouse, etc, and the smaller ones, which the vast majority of privately educated kids go to. At my kids' private school you're far more likely to rub shoulders with the DC of a local builder who's made a shit load of money, or an IT consultant in the City of London than you are with someone who lives in a stately home. There are also large numbers of DC whose parents are non-British. The assumption that private schools are just churning out posh, white twats like Boris Johnson and David Cameron is so far from the truth that it would be laughable, if it wasn't so inaccurate and didn't lead to such vitriol, anger and envy.

I think independent schools could be in a position able to offer something to all abilities. Many super selective are able to go way beyond the curriculum or not even follow the curriculum for a significant time this would benefit very high achievers in the state sector. Although some independent schools are exam factories many aren’t especially those who offer boarding many pride themselves on offering an all round education again and have top facilities again state educated children could benefit.
Secondly I’m aware that the general view stated regularly on here is that small classes make little difference (I’d be surprised if that applied to all subjects) but many say small classes were their reason for moving to the independent sector and anecdotally state that it’s made a difference to their DC and I would have thought small classes better equipment and facilities might help lower achievers.
I agree help with lesson planning is patronising. Although Im sure in teaching as I’m my profession we should be learning from and sharing excellence and there are some excellent teachers in both sectors. But I can see other issues arising if attempts were made to have closer integration. For example if you decided to bring the high achievers of state school A to independent school B even 5 minutes up the road for physics lessons 2 hours a week, how would this work logistically? Who brings the pupils, will parents have to consent? Having worked in the state sector there are only minutes between lesson changes, would there be sufficient time. You couldn’t bring all 30 children to one class on a regular basis because then the parents in the independent school are likely to object, classrooms in many independent schools are big enough (especially the older schools) so do you choose a select few is that fair on the others? In XingMings example only 12 pupils from the state school were involved. Or do you run whole days devoted to a subject and invite pupils from the local state school to join them, (DS2’s school I believe did this). Could the state and the independent sector come together more for sport art music drama etc where the latters facilities coaches etc are usually far superior. In the ideal world they could a ruby team consisting of pupils from both state and independent sound an excellent idea but again it’s all about logistics, the boarding schools I’ve been involved with offer sport three whole afternoons a week (including Saturday) even in day schools significantly more time in the time table are devoted to sport drama etc, pupils at independent schools also practice with their coaches in lunch break, before school starts in the evenings, (it’s no coincidence that a disproportionate number of Olympiad’s come from the independent sector). I’m sure they’d happily invite aspiring rugby players netball payers etc from the local state but no state school would be in a position to allow its pupils to take two whole afternoons off a week to train at another school and lunch breaks etc there simply isnt enough time in the daily time table. So it’s back to running the odd training sessions and I can hear those who are anti independent education saying that the independent sector doesn’t do enough!
I know one very well known boarding school invited a group children from a state school to spend a week, the head used this to justify their charitable status them but I’m uncomfortable with this. I feel the main message being sent out is this is what a tiny number of pupils have but you don’t and won’t ever have it.
What’s the solution? I believe it obvious really work on improving what the state offers make the state sector a truly viable option across the board. stop driving teachers away, changing the curriculum ever 10 mins, Yes borrow facilities from the independent sector (I suspect few would have a problem with this) and regularly have whole days devoted to maths or art or rugby or even tiddlywinks where those from both sectors can come together and learn from each other but finance and resource the state sector better so that many parents don’t feel forced to move to the independent sector to get the help and support they believe their DC need and financially cripple themselves in the process.

simultaneously offered to help the state teachers with resources, lesson plans, enrichment and training.

Do state school teachers need help with lesson planning?

“The assumption that private schools are just churning out posh, white twats like Boris Johnson and David Cameron is so far from the truth that it would be laughable, if it wasn't so inaccurate and didn't lead to such vitriol, anger and envy”
I don’t think anyone on this thread thinks that. And I see no vitriol, anger or envy. Actually, I tend to switch off when people bring out the “envy” line. It is so very dismissive and rude- it makes me not want to engage any further with the person using it.

In fairness Bertrand Boris is held often up on here and generally as a typical product of an elite private school and Eton in particular. Many on here comment on the number of Old Etonians is positions of power and influence. A female Labour MP on announcing their plans for independent schools actually said this would be the end of Eton, little St Elsewhere wasn’t mentioned, but this is hardly surprising as we live in a were of soundbite and populist politics.
’Do state schools need help with planning lessons”
They are all teachers in both sectors, why they can’t learn from each other? I’m involved in “quality improvement” and we meet with other teams across the region and discuss excellence in practice and visit their centres we learn from each other, some have significantly more money resources and staff than we do but that doesn’t mean we can’t aspire to things they so and try to replicate them in our own situations. This is what mature professional people do if your committed to driving up standards above everything else. You don’t say “you can’t teach me anything because you are not in the same sector as I am”.

I don’t think anyone on this thread thinks that. And I see no vitriol, anger or envy. Actually, I tend to switch off when people bring out the “envy” line. It is so very dismissive and rude- it makes me not want to engage any further with the person using it.

There's a lot anger in some of some of the posts - read them back if you don't believe me, whether that comes from a place of vitriol or envy I cannot say.

As for the envy point, can you say, hand on heart, that this aim of Labour's to abolish private schools does not, at all come from a place of thinking that is roughly 'If we can't have this, then we don't want you to have the option of it either'?. Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what it feels like and I wonder where it will end. What else can the majority of people not afford that they resent people who can having?

There’s a difference between saying that private schools just turn out posh white twits, and saying that there is something unhealthy and self perpetuating about so many of the “movers and shakers” coming from such a narrow band of society.

Actually I think one if the many ghastly things about Johnson is the way he is such caricature of all the worst of the Eton “type” and shows absolutely none of the best.

Both of my DSs are at independent schools. DS1 attends a specialist independent school for pupils with complex autism and other similar disabilities. Our LA pays his bill because they agree that none of the LA’s own schools can meet his needs. Should his school be abolished too?

DS2 attends a very small, not remotely fancy private school. It gives him huge opportunities in music and drama (his main passions). It also offers its resources out to the local comprehensive and provides tutoring to that school too.

We can just afford to send DS there. If we didn’t pay school fees then we’d be able to afford a larger house, nicer cars and fancy holidays. We are lucky to have what what we do have, I’m not saying we’re not. But where is this all going to end? Is JC going to make everyone live in the same size house as one another and drive the same type of car?

“It also offers its resources out to the local comprehensive and provides tutoring to that school too”
Can I ask how this works? I’d love to see an example of this working well in practice.

Your Jeremy Corbyn-approved state-issue vehicle will be delivered some time in the first half of 2031 @CatkinToadflax. Picture attached.

Zafferana I look forward to it arriving! I should be able to hear it bumping along down the road....assuming it's still moving by then....

Bert DS2's school provides tutoring to (I think) Y11 pupils at the local comprehensives in one specific academic subject in which it has a great reputation nationally. The school offers several scholarships every year to our sixth form to pupils at these state schools for up to 100% of fees. Scholarships to pupils already in the school are far smaller. The school's indoor swimming pool is used by a couple of local schools and the drama facilities are used by local groups in the school holidays.

However DS2 used to attend a different private school which did bollock all with the local community. So I am well aware that not all private schools are the same or give in the same way to the local community.

@CatkinToadflax- so mostly targeted at the high achievers? Not a criticism- I’m just data gathering!

Bert yes I think for tutoring and scholarships. However facilities accessible to all to use. It’s not a perfect system but it’s a lot better than nothing.

@BertrandRussell I know the headmaster of a well known public school teaches at two local state schools and requires each department to allocate a member of staff to be available for outreach, where they coordinate with local state schools on enrichment programmes. The students are also required to engage in community activities and can choose between helping with reading in a local primary school, helping at a local nursing home and a homeless shelter. There are also concerts that involve brining students form different schools together. The idea is to build bridges between communities for the benefit of all.

I’ve mentioned in a couple of these threads that DC’s school is currently recruiting for a Computing Science teacher who will work half time in their school and then half time through their outreach programme at a state school in one of the most deprived areas of the city. They already participate in a successful Mandarin language programme with a couple of state schools where their teachers provide teaching hours in local schools.

Bertrand here’s some data for you; as well as aspiring to be needs blind this is what DS2’s school does.

@NoisingUpNissan I'm in exactly the same position. Our ds has a disability the state schools struggled with and hestruggled in a class of 32. Now in a private school in a class of 12 and thriving. We certainly aren't wealthy but make a lot of sacrifices. We couldn't afford the vat on the school. I already pay vat on my salary before u pay the school so would be paying it twice. I don't think it will happen anyway but like you I would never vote labour whilst he's the leader.

If you don’t mind me asking iamadakek2 who will you vote for if an election is called in the next couple of months and labour don’t change this policy? Would you normally vote labour? Does your current MP have a big majority?

@happygardening actually don't know the answer to this. I feel so let down by labour. I'm in Scotland and snp are even worse. Conservative have done nothing to help business. I need to look more into libdem. It's totally depressing.