Oxford VC blaming state schools for low Oxbridge entry!

[Miljah]

Am speechless- but not surprised, tbh.

Yes, top private schools do pluck clever, poor students out of state schools, not necessarily in an act of altruism, though, but to justify their charitable status and to boost their academic success ratings.

They take these DC out of often, large, all-comer comps with the usual panoply of big classes, poor equipment in falling down buildings, a demoralised work force, challenging behaviours, disruption, SEN, both diagnosed and not (and even then poorly funded), some low community expectations and so forth; and then place them in small classes of clever, motivated fellow pupils, in beautiful buildings with top of the range equipment, better paid staff, forensic guidance, very motivated parents- and thus they head off to Oxbridge.

Louise Richardson, Oxford Vice Chancellor muses that state schools are failing 'their brightest' (those left after the indies have creamed off the ones they want) by not offering a similar service.

How can you be so lacking in critical thinking skills yet get to be VC of Oxford?

I don't think there is any problem in saying that there is competition for places at top universities but that competition needs to be clear, fair and not discriminatory.

It is easy to demonstrate passion for a subject if you have been coached in how to do this. It is easy to read round a subject if you get directed to the right books. It is easy to demonstrate improving extracurricular activities if they are signposted.

@LolaSmiles, at my DT’s selective school they are not only told repeatedly and from the start “have a go but you probably won’t get it” but also that it will be more difficult for them precisely because they are at fee paying schools. I have no problem at all with that message having taken all three of our DC out of local grammars ( poverty of ambition academically and poor pastoral and extracurricular provision: not all grammars are as good as one would hope).
@GnomedePlume.. you’re right of course about the signposting to things but the books still need to be read and thought about by a DC with plenty else to distract their teen brain ( regardless of educational background!) and aren’t interviewers meant to be able to see past coaching.
Have to agree a bit with the earlier poster re actual attainment v possible potential.

Not sure I agree that in Yorkshire there isn't a body of people able to pay Eton fees. At my children's independent school there were a large number of parents who drove a Range rover each and lived in huge Mansions.

As I said, Eton just wasn't on their radar as it is far away and no local preps, so just stuck to local High achieving independent school. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Ps some parts of Yorkshire incredibly wealthy...

Why does no one mention class?

All this talk of income/ geography when class is the elephant in the room!

I agree travel.
It was amusing that Yorkshire families were presented as home bunnies who are lacking ambition.

There's parts of Yorkshire i would love to live in. Alas, on teacher salary that won't happen any time soon.

hobbema
Our local independent takes a similar approach to yours. It's a sensible approach.

I was meaning the ones where 1 in 3 go to Oxbridge, they've probably had more push of entitlement to a place, lots of talk about how they are the most intelligent in the country etc.

I can't remember what I was watching but someone did a feature on either Eton or Harrow and they were saying that with the names of notable alumni on the wall and the message of 'you are the elite' there was a continuous message of 'students from here are the very best and you will go to the best universities and hold public office' running throughout all they did. And i would imagine it comes from parents too.

A child who is one of a dozen Oxbridge applicants from a good state secondary won't have that sense of 'of course I'm applying because I'm from x school and we are the elite' because we have to work harder to help them realise that they are bright, talented and as talented as whatever tutored and coached privately educated students apply. The best we get is students going in thinking 'I'm bright and capable and this is something I could do. I have as good a chance as any other bright child'. I think that's a good place to be, not intimidated but not entitled or overconfident. The problem is that when you've worked hard to get to that point, it's really easy to feel out of place, have your confidence knocked, doubt your ability.

Hmm. Thing is, if someone is already lacking in confidence, I really don't think banging on all day about how unlikely they are to get into Oxford or Cambridge is going to encourage them to apply. It may be water off a duck's back for someone groomed for the supposedly impossible, but it's undoubtedly not the way to encourage someone who already thinks Oxbridge is not for the likes of them. It is particularly not the way to encourage someone when they know that some private schools send a high percentage of children to Oxbridge (so the obvious conclusion therefore is that they are unlikely to get in precisely because they have the wrong sort of background and go to the wrong school). So I do wonder what the point of such an outreach day is, tbh, if so much time is spent using exactly the right language to discourage the audience in front of you.

As for cultural capital, it is easier to stage an operetta if you have an orchestra's worth of children playing classical musical instruments to a high level rather than electric guitar and drums. Otherwise, a musical will go down better in more ways than one. And if you can only afford to put on one big production a year, something involving acting, music and dance will involve more people than, eg, a Shakespeare play.

Finally, what does Oxford's VC actually think state schools are not doing enough of? The article doesn't actually specify. It certainly skirts conveniently around the issue of the colossal resources available to private schools wealthy enough to offer scholarships (which will be offered to families who know how to self-publicise and push already - I know of no private schools which look for bright children of unenthusiastic parents who have never pushed their children forward for opportunities in their lives).

Lola having even one supportive teacher can make a massive difference. My grandson is at a school which has been in special measures throughout his GCSEs, despite which he got decent grades and has good A levels predicted. He has a great passion for his particular subject, and is very motivated to seek out exactly the university course which will suit him. The teachers are encouraging him and giving advice. I would hope any teacher would encourage a bright child!

My DC has recently returned from a 5 day UNIQ outreach summer school at Oxford. At no point were they given the impression that it wasn't for the likes of them. In fact they came back enthused because of the support and encouragement they received to apply, as the key message seemed to be that it was for the likes of them. They were given a huge amount of info about the financial support and bursaries available, even if family income was up to over £40k.

They know that it will be an aspirational slot on their UCAS form, but, with their grades and experience, they do have a chance of interview, as long as they can get through the admission test.

Dgs didn't get a place at a summer school, but the Oxford open day alone was incredibly helpful. There were plenty of talks and people to chat to. His mum took him, it wasn't a school thing. They have been eligible for FSM, so information about bursaries was good to know.

The tutors at the Oxford Open Day were incredibly enthusiastic as far as DD was concerned too (generally towards the group, not just her obviously). She was also asked to two subject specific events by two separate colleges, unsolicited (one a single day event, one a summer school). I was surprised but impressed. All very positive. She hasn't got a whiff of the you'll be lucky etc, although she's well aware of the general statistics.

The lack of money argument is always a bit meh, to my mind.

Agree.

SlocombePooter
I agree that a teacher can make a massive difference to a child. I don't think I could go to work each day if I didn't think I could help kids get further in life and achieve.

I don't think it compensates for the huge numbers of legs up that some have (especially when they have the nerve to claim they got there off their own back/with all their hard work and so on).

Larrythelobster
That's good to hear. The days and outreach need to be meaningful to avoid pointless tokenism (which has been the experience of some of our students). It's good to hear that one has been useful and meaningful.

We've sent students on Sutton Trust summer schools and have heard good things back from those outreach events. They seem to do a more meaningful job in terms of raising aspiration and encouraging students to broaden their horizons.

Just wanted to say Lola you are a star - your lucky students x

Thank you, but seriously this is what most state teachers do day in day out.

I think that's why I feel so strongly about really clueless ideas like London parents are aspirational, rich kids just happen to be better.

What students need are staff who encourage and back them, those in positions of influence to actually do something to help all children, and those who have benefited from privilege to acknowledge that they/their kids have had a leg up.

Lola I really do think that you're doing yourself down. So many teachers are not like yourself.

That's sweet of you goodbye . In which case I feel fortunate to have worked with very many colleagues who have very similar values over the years, and to have had brilliant mentors and guides along the way (including a few what not to do).

@LolaSmiles agree that I think you're doing a brilliant job but I (gladly!) think it's the same at my DCs state school - I'm blown away by how great the teachers are and how much additional discretionary effort they put in. It's the same for schools that my friends DCs go to - absolutely fantastic. Still doesn't make Oxford a natural next step, but it certainly does inspire them to be the best they can be. Thank you!

Rich kids may well come from parents who are hugely well educated and have highly paying jobs. They also pay the highest taxes. You cannot get away from the fact that the middle class in this country is full of people like this and London and the SE is the centre of “business” for many. It’s why the most tax income comes from that area. It’s why house prices are the highest, and people pay £millions for homes. If they lived in Yorkshire they would have mansions too. There are just more of these people in London and the SE. That does not mean others cannot emulate them in terms of what they want for DC but they might not wish to.

I’m not going to apologise for giving my DC the best I could give. We have not pushed anyone out of the way. We didn’t start out “rich”. I did realise that being successful was more than just school work though. It’s about a thirst for knowledge outside the curriculum, being interested in all sorts of things, general knowledge that can be useful and introducing DC to more than school can offer. This means at an interview DC can draw on more than school work. This doesn’t necessarily cost money. It costs effort and the realisation its necessary.

But in a school system geared up for entry to Oxford the student doesn't need to work this out for themselves. The extra reading, the practice of debate, the extra curricular activities are all clearly laid out. Yes, the student has to do them but it is made very clear what they have to do. This advantage has been bought for the student.

For the student in a low attainment comp, without experience of getting students into high ranking universities, they have to work this out for themselves. They may also already be having to put in extra work independently just to get their knowledge up to a high enough grade. I know my DD did in a couple of her subjects.

gnome that is it in a nutshell. A child who is self propelled, as it were, given the right opportunities, will do very well. But the opportunities have to be available for all, in a fair society. There is a massive loss of talent in the state system. It's not good for our country.

My kids state school also has amazing teachers who’ve opened their eyes to science in particular (not either of our areas). At parents evenings I’m always impressed by the enthusiasm, energy and brightness of the teachers - and hence eldest got mostly 8s at gcse 👍

All the people I know who went from state comp to oxbridge had connections. Either a parent who went there or at least a teacher who went there. Someone who knew what it was all about to support them. I went to Manchester and UCL and now teach but I feel totally inadequate when trying to support one of my students to apply to oxbridge. I would love some cpd on university applications.
Those who say schools can offer just as good an education on the cheap need to visit more schools.
I work at one of the worst performing schools in the country. I teach science. I have classes of 32 in which 15 have sen and no TA. The equipment is broken or non existent. We have 1 textbook between 4 students. There are many wonderfully bright students but will they get into oxbridge? Not a chance.
I recently visited a state comp in a leafy middle class area (In yorkshire!). Every student had a laptop. The labs were modern and everything worked. The technicians were amazing in preparing practicals for the students. Will some of them get into oxbridge? Almost certainly.
Maybe the VC should ask some of her alumni to start investing properly in state schools in poor areas.

@LolaSmiles, I agree with the others, you sound amazing. I had similarly great science teachers at my low achieving North East comp who got me into medical school. Its not the kind of school that would be attracting outreach attention though I’m pretty sure I got my med school place through contextual data/ positive discrimination if that existed in the 80s.It’s the investment of the teacher’s enthusiasm for their pupils that we value at their current school, not the admittedly great sport, music, drama facilities. All the extracurricular stuff is of no interest to Oxbridge anyway we are told. They don’t give a tinkers cuss if you have g8 violin/ played the lead in Les Mis .
Watching DD who has her own plan( and fought hard to drop 2 of the 3 instruments she has been playing to free up time for preparation) it’s clear they need to have done most of the supracurricular jazz in L6 to be set up to apply in October. Am I being naive to think most schools should /will also know this? I know I wouldn’t have known where to start when I was her age and my supportive parents would have been similarly clueless. There wasn’t t’internet then though! Like a previous poster mentioned; confidence, I had zero but don’t think school could have altered that...

I think projects like the Youth Citizenship (?) one are good, not perhaps from a cv perspective, but just to meet other aspirational teens. That was one good thing from Rory Stewart's recent campaign, his suggestion that every child in the country have a go at something like that.