Oxford VC blaming state schools for low Oxbridge entry!

[Miljah]

Am speechless- but not surprised, tbh.

Yes, top private schools do pluck clever, poor students out of state schools, not necessarily in an act of altruism, though, but to justify their charitable status and to boost their academic success ratings.

They take these DC out of often, large, all-comer comps with the usual panoply of big classes, poor equipment in falling down buildings, a demoralised work force, challenging behaviours, disruption, SEN, both diagnosed and not (and even then poorly funded), some low community expectations and so forth; and then place them in small classes of clever, motivated fellow pupils, in beautiful buildings with top of the range equipment, better paid staff, forensic guidance, very motivated parents- and thus they head off to Oxbridge.

Louise Richardson, Oxford Vice Chancellor muses that state schools are failing 'their brightest' (those left after the indies have creamed off the ones they want) by not offering a similar service.

How can you be so lacking in critical thinking skills yet get to be VC of Oxford?

Sounds like a really good idea @ErrolTheDragon - perhaps govt could get on board and sponsor more places

Lovegrowswhere.
Our school has just gone through forced acadamisation. There are roughly 1500 pupils. There was 3 meetings I think 50ish parents attended, over the 3.
It's worse on the build up to acadamisation, the new MAT found out the LEA owe the school 2.7 million in non refurbishments, we still have the original 1950's toilets.
Plus we have been underfunded by £750 per pupil which went to western schools
On top of this the school faces a £125000 bus cost shortfall.

To nolanscrack, so what about 4A been rejected, I bet they didn't attend a school which used to get less than 40% A to C at gcse, has less then 55 finish year 13 out of 375 and less then 20 doing 3 A levels.
The school' average gcse pass rate was D, high achievers B-.
It's first progress 8 score was -2.8

If you leave there with 3 A's at A level I think you deserve a medal. But of course they fighting against kids who have £45000 spent on them.

I said it before and I repeat it DS1 did Martin Luther King for his history A level work. The school had no books/videos or references on the man.

Today I was in Hedon library and looked at university info it holds, I found the following
Hull University 2018
Degrees at Hull College
CUScarborough 2018
Teeside 2017
Bristol 2014
Exeter 2012.

We only have local KCom internet, no sky, BT or anyothers.
We often have no 3g network.
I beleive its a miracle any of our kids try.

Has for new teachers more money.
Money what with a Tory government, no magic tree afterall.
We had no headteacher for 4.5 years.
When the new UTC opened it just took it's SMT from other local schools.
The last 4 new headteachers in Hull and ErYC have move from the same role in other local schools.
Our 4 local GP practices have merged to overcome the fact they can not recruit GP's
Bridlington had to cancel a new Hosiptal for same reason.
We have just lost 6 walkin centres and now have only 3, nearest is 35 minutes away.
Humberside Police had to advertise at least twice to get a new CC. Lincolnshire the exact same. Both promoted internally.

What works in London and SE, even Leeds and Manchester won't work here.
We are different. In 2011 census 97.8% of Holderness population was born in Holderness.
We are a rural fishing area. Releiant on Hull for most jobs.
It is 19 miles from the coast to Hull on a good day it takes 39 minutes, bad day over 60 minutes. I work 10.8 miles from home, good journey 25 mins, record 2.5 hours.
I fear it's to late, we are encourage DS1 to move away after university.

Not as intensively bad as 2BoysandaCairn has described for her area but similar problems in Northamptonshire where I live. A big rural county, too big, too spread out. No big industry in the county, no major university, no major football team.

Education and health service provision both suffer. It is difficult to attract good staff into schools which have been quietly failing for decades through poor management.

2BoysandaCairn clearly what you describe is not acceptable - but you seem to have no idea of what is going on in rural areas in other parts of the country. A lot of what you describe is standard, unfortunately. Not great.

Your description of the local schools does completely vindicate Louise Richardson. Clearly Oxford is not responsible for that level of neglect in the education system. She's right to call it out.

I could literally list the ways in which the Oxford syllabus, traditions, governing body etc discriminate against state school undergraduates

What a load of crap. As if all state-school undergraduates are knuckle-dragging idiots who can't cope with a "tradition" or the syllabus. Ime what attracts people are those very things.

Ds (bog-standard comp educated) bloody loves his gown and the Harry Potter-esque dinners. You can hardly tear the gravy-stained gown off his back.

And as for the syllabus... well, they're not all the same. Actually they differ by subject! (sarcastic face - this is aimed at this particular poster who says they can write an article on this )

What the syllabus for each subject has in common is that it is intellectual. It doesn't matter where you come from, you should be hungry for more depth and stimulation. Ds was thrilled to be able to get stuck in. He didn't want a special "state-school lite" syllabus especially for people like him .

Yes, this. People live up to expectations and down to them. We need to stop trying to make things like English 'relevant' when choosing texts. But choose texts that are interesting and challenging and find what is relevant in it.
I have been on courses where when I've said what texts I teach people have queried them as being 'too hard'. My own PGCE tutor 'corrected' my unit on Oliver Twist as 'of course you'd just do an abridged version. Your own experience is irrelevant. Most children can't cope with this.' Fortunately, my first placement school believed in challenging their students and used classic literature in class while encouraging contemporary young adult fiction for fun.

I think the question of Oxbridge entry is misleading. The problem is not how many students are going to Oxbridge, the problem is that students in low aspiration schools are not going to university at all or are not being encouraged/given the confidence to achieve their potential.

They are not getting the information/encouragement to distinguish between an unconditional offer from a lower tier university and a conditional offer from a higher tier university. If the school/community dont give this information how is a student going to know that there can be a significant difference in potential future outcomes resulting from the institution chosen.

The reason this happens is due to “staying local”. This isn’t aspirational but it’s good enough. That’s why I queried how many actually want Oxford and how many are qualified to go. If DC and generations are intent on staying local, they don’t want more than that. That’s ok as long as they are happy in their locality and their work.

Errol But that transition was decades ago.

I agree but the expertise is embedded in the college and it continues to have one of the highest rates of Oxbridge acceptances for a state school. They had 22 offers in 2019 and 69 offers in the last 3 years. In many schools in disadvantaged areas, an outstanding student with the right grades and motivation may only crop up every few years. This means that teachers are not building up the bank of experience necessary to support an Oxbridge student on the occasions that an outstanding student appears.

BubblesBuddy I dont think students necessarily want to stay local but I think there is an expectation that they will stay local.

There are lots of contributing factors:

• lack of knowledge about different tiers of university. Oxbridge then everywhere else lumped together.
• lack of knowledge about graduate careers leads to being pushed into/choosing heavily vocational degrees rather than academic degrees. 'What are you going to do with a degree in X? Get a degree in Z because it will lead to a job.'.
• fear of debt, lack of family funds to support a student leaving home to go away to study (or simply a fear of costs spiralling).
• local universities advertise heavily locally, this perpetuates the idea that local is the way to go. This advertising doesnt just influence the student, it also influences family and friends of the student. 'Why do you need to go away to study? You can do the same course at the local uni'

If you don't live in one it can be hard to appreciate how insular a small town like the one I live in can be. Extended family all living here. Modest employment opportunities, relatively low cost housing. It all builds in the idea of staying local:

• but you don't know anyone in Leeds/Bristol/Durham!
• what's the point in going away if you are going to come back here anyway
• why not stay here so you can keep your job at ASDA/Costa

If your school/community/family don't tell you different these arguments can all weigh very heavy.

Has anyone actually looked at the Sats results of DC living in the coastal towns mentioned above and then checked to see how many come out at 18 with suitable A levels and even a possibility of going to Oxford? I do suspect the schools are not good enough but are there likely to be many suitable candidates in Clacton, or similar towns? Not sure.

Skegness and Boston still have grammar/secondary modern split.

Quite why reserachers aren't rushing to these towns to look at how that system works in practice I do not know. Probably people on both sides of the argument would rather not have their assumptions challenged.

For what it's worth - Skegness had one student into Oxbridge last year and Boston four.

www.sgs.lincs.sch.uk/news/levels-skegness-grammar-school-students-get-ready-university

www.bostonhighschool.co.uk/index.php/news/press-releases

I think that’s a really strong argument about staying put.

I had a friend who’s dc was off to uni and I mentioned about them moving out and them having a spare room, she looked at me in horror and said ‘but dc will be home every weekend’ which in turn just wasn’t on my radar.

When I was at uni no one went home at term time and lots got jobs in the uni town so didn’t go home much in the holidays either- the uni town became their home. But after this conversation I realised how strong it was for some people the idea that uni is somewhere you go for classes for 3 years only to go right back to where you started.

I’ve also come across the idea of just going to the local, without thinking of quality/ reputation.

No wonder there are so many grads in retail/ call centres/ admin.

Dancingdreamer what do you mean exactly when you say 'expertise'. I would quarrel very much with the idea that the teaching body needs to support a student through the process - it really is very straightforward and the websites for both unis are excellent and do their absolute best to demystify the process precisely so that no special support is required, or thought to be required.

But clearly schools where students have got in in good numbers has an advantage is that it's seen by other bright students as a real possibility for them too, not beyond reasonable expectation. A certain quality of teaching needs to be there too, as a given - and that isn't always a given, unfortunately.

“if every year to turn down the brightest, who do apply, and believe me, using Oxford's own tables at least 1 tries every year from our 4 nearest comps, and every year none get a place”

DD’s school always encouraged students to apply to Oxbridge, but doesn’t have a great success rate, yet they never stop trying. The most successful year was when they got 4 students there. The 6th form has about 250 students in total, so with a few drop outs after year 12, about 120 in year 13. The Oxbridge hopefuls get a lot of support. It is a comprehensive in a good area with above average GCSE and A level results. In DD’s year they had the most applicants sitting the aptitude tests ever with 16 students sitting them. This resulted in just 2 offers, and only one going to Cambridge as the other student underperformed at A level.

The A level results last year were the best ever, and at the certificate ceremony the HT was saying what a loss it was to the Oxbridge universities that so many good students with A and A* failed to get there. So where were they going wrong?

“Goodbyestranger - 2Boys is nearly correct about the worst funding. Her area had the lowest funding per child until the formula rejig 2/3 years ago”

Our LA was also one of the lowest funded areas. The school was the 4th lowest funded school in the country and was getting half the amount per pupil than schools in other LAs. The school, governors and parents launched a campaign to lobby for fairer funding. It was well supported by our local MP. They ended up being on the local and national news, and the campaign was successful.

Re staying local – I’m surprised that so many of DD’s peers went to one of the local universities. However, it is a highly regarded RG university, and they all moved out. DD didn’t want to apply there because it is too local, and she wants to go somewhere she doesn’t know because she will enjoy the excitement of discovering somewhere new. She doesn’t intend to come back and live here afterwards because job opportunities in her field just don’t exist where we live, and I have encouraged her to follow the best path. I am not that clingy parent who won’t let go of their child.

Have an advantage.

Strongly agree with the pull to stay local. That's back to the general lack of aspiration which dogs the leadership and teachers in so many schools. Even if the norm in a town or area is to stay local, a good HT should be able to challenge the merit of that idea with in the case of particular pupils who are bright enough to trade up. Lack of good leadership is the problem. I'm really struggling to see why on earth OP thinks the Oxford VC is the one struggling with her thinking skills.

"Goodbyestranger - 2Boys is nearly correct about the worst funding. Her area had the lowest funding per child until the formula rejig 2/3 years ago”

TapasForTwo my DCs' school was also one of the worst funded.

Our LAs schools were 6th worst funded and now 15th worst funded. We are a grammar school county.

I think that local can be fine for the right student who goes on the right course. But if local isn’t RG and the student should be aiming for top 10, then ambition and advice is lacking.

I think it helps unsure students with less parental knowledge to have expertise in school. This isn’t built up by the odd success every few years. It certainly isn’t built up by teachers who think Oxbridge shouldn’t exist and where students are conditioned to think that this type of education is for others and they cannot possibly fit in. So, stay local and you’ll fit in just fine!

There appear to be 16 grammar schools in Lincolnshire. Essentially the other schools are secondary moderns and not truly comprehensive. They must have a reduced number of bright DC. So perhaps all the angst about Lincolnshire is a bit misplaced. It has more Grammars than Bucks.

It isnt about supporting students to apply to Oxbridge it is about supporting students to strive to achieve their potential. Not to settle for a nice safe unconditional offer at the local university but push for the grades to get to the course they really want wherever that is.

There will be a number of things which schools can do to help this eg:

• accurate grade predictions and clear communication with students about what they need to do to achieve these grades. Not inflated or overly cautious. Regular reviews with students which look at overall performance. This can be a significant problem in consortium sixth forms where students can be studying at multiple locations.

• recognising symptoms of 'imposter syndrome' and working with the student to counteract this.

• accurate information about university finance and life and opportunities for students and their families to ask questions. Without this people can get hung up on the idea of debt and worry about how they will ever be able to afford university.

• application strategy, open days, taster days. How to get the best out of the process.

Seems we're missing out on one of the obvious solutions - delay university applications until after A-Level results. Apparently there's going to be a major Admissions review

www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/news/Pages/Major-review-of-university-admissions-underway.aspx

This link is probably more helpful

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49071312

Well the thread was about Oxford. So some of us are writing about Oxford. However, I agree it is a wider problem about any university that is aspirational.

I think lots of myths are allowed to go unchallenged. My DSis's boyfriend is a teacher. He cheerfully told my DM that one of her granddaughters (my DN) could not afford anywhere "swanky" because of the cost. He told my DM that she would have to pay it all back and it was too much money for her to pay off. If teachers do not know how the grad tax works, heaven help us. DC are put off before they even get into making any decisions.

I agree with everything you say, GnomeDePlume. However, schools and individual teachers whom DC might look up to, are lacking in ambition due to misplaced "not for the lijes of you" atitudes and blatantly wrong information. It is wrong that teachers suggest that somehow you will not be happy in a very aspirational university choice and that you should not aspire to somewhere swanky. It is very easy to persuade some DC of where they sit in life by adults who should know better. When they big up the local university offering without any understanding that DC could do better.

I dont think it is possible to address the problem of applications to Oxford/Cambridge without addressing the wider issue of encouraging students to achieve their potential rather than settling for the safe and familiar. I may be wrong but I see it as a pyramid. Get students aspiring to the best tier they can achieve and more students will see the peak of the pyramid as achievable and a reasonable thing to aspire to rather than something which is totally beyond their reach.

From my experience of DD's school there is a lot of confusion in the information given. There is a lot of 'anybody can be anything' which encourages students to start looking at Oxford/Cambridge but not in the sense of proper university applications and looking at courses. DD said that at no point did any member of staff talk with her about courses she was applying for and where (not Oxbridge).

From what I have observed, and that includes friends with DC at the local grammar schools, that DC who are just below top grade, eg AAB level get very poor advice. I think they are probably great with the high flyers, the medics, vets and similar but struggle to advise those with slightly less stellar grades that you can still aspire to somewhere not quite at the top of the pyramid. So friends DC have chosen non RG and lowly ranked universities when they could have done much better. Languages students can definitely aim high but as soon as a single grade might be a B, with others at AA, they start suggesting non RG.

Absolutely bang on there. DD was one of the 'not quite stellar' students. No advice from the school.

Friend of DD's suffered badly with imposter syndrome during second year of A levels. He was aiming at medical school, holding an offer. No support from the school. Now working in a clothes shop.