Oxford VC blaming state schools for low Oxbridge entry!

[Miljah]

Am speechless- but not surprised, tbh.

Yes, top private schools do pluck clever, poor students out of state schools, not necessarily in an act of altruism, though, but to justify their charitable status and to boost their academic success ratings.

They take these DC out of often, large, all-comer comps with the usual panoply of big classes, poor equipment in falling down buildings, a demoralised work force, challenging behaviours, disruption, SEN, both diagnosed and not (and even then poorly funded), some low community expectations and so forth; and then place them in small classes of clever, motivated fellow pupils, in beautiful buildings with top of the range equipment, better paid staff, forensic guidance, very motivated parents- and thus they head off to Oxbridge.

Louise Richardson, Oxford Vice Chancellor muses that state schools are failing 'their brightest' (those left after the indies have creamed off the ones they want) by not offering a similar service.

How can you be so lacking in critical thinking skills yet get to be VC of Oxford?

The trouble is, Oxbridge is a hugely intimidating atmosphere if you don't feel you belong there. They may deny it, but a private school pupil with one or both parents who went there and has always been told that it's more or less their right to go to Oxbridge will have a much easier process of it than a working class kid from a comp in Doncaster who has been told this is the biggest opportunity of their life but, oh, it's full of Southern poshos.

NB, and I say this as someone with a lot of fondness for Oxbridge, friends and family who went there and who would like it to be better than it is on that front.

EchoBelly,
I think the problem is Oxbridge defenders on here say it is for anyone, but the county I grow up in was disbanded in 1997, and out of the 4 new counties 2 have had no students go to Oxbridge, the City has had 10, 6 from private schools and the other has had 20, 50% from private schools, no one goes from our side of the county. So it is not for the likes of us, we had kids with 3 A's at A level from a school that is one of only 50 secondaries in England never to be rated good over above, is in SM and had no headteacher for 4.5 of the years my eldest attended, and still they get reused at interview, then no one applies the next year.

How does our school in a rural Yorkshire coastal community, with less then 12% HE attendance, and on less then £5000/pupil/year complete with Eton, St Pauls or even the local privates which charge over £11500/year. It is a joke.

Errol if it’s Loreto RC 6th form in a Manchester you are thinking of, this evolved from a former grammar school. When it transitioned many years ago to a 6th form, it had an established programme of Oxbridge support based on its experience as a grammar school. It has been able to continue this as it also has a huge intake so has a large enough cohort of strong academic students to provide dedicated Oxbridge support. Many smaller comprehensive schools don’t have this experience or the numbers to provide the support needed.

2boys I think that's part of the problem. It's not all about grades at A level, it's about the the admissions process. DS had to do an Oxford admissions test which was beyond what he'd done at A level at that stage. However he'd already self studied a lot alongside a couple of others at his 6th form. They set up their own study groups. But this was at a Grammar sixth form with a strong academic ethos. Would this even occur to most teenagers in a normal school? It wouldn't have even crossed my mind!!

if it’s Loreto RC 6th form in a Manchester you are thinking of

I'm thinking of two others, I'd never heard of that one. But that transition was decades ago, surely schools without this experience should be able to learn from those that do?

White rose - I don't know about Oxford but Cambridge aptitude tests (a more recent introduction intended to help with the demise of AS and the variability of A level grade prediction) are meant to be based on yr12 a level content plus a bit of thinking outside the box. DDs preparation was the one sample paper available at that point.

Not everyone thinks Oxbridge is the end goal. Private schools market themselves on their acceptance rate - most state schools don't have this as an issue and therefore the push to Oxbridge is much less. When advising students I have always said look at the course. Make sure it's what you want and the way you want to study. For a lot of kids the tutorial system of Oxbridge doesn't appeal and the courses appear old fashioned. So students apply elsewhere. As one example, we have very very few medics who want to apply to either as there is no early patient contact, and most now want that. So Oxbridge isn't seen as so important by state schools as there are other options that appeal more.

Definitely right to an extent. They can't accept people who don't apply. A similar issue is part of the reason for low PP numbers in grammar schools.
Some secondary schools and colleges are better than others in terms of knowledge of the system as well.
However, the way to solve this isn't to blame the schools in question but to engage with them.
We have a member of staff with a TLR based on supporting Oxbridge and medical applications (a recently created post). We have a history of sending lots of students so we can access quite a lot of knowledge about the individual colleges etc.
People assume things about the top universities which just aren't true.

As one example, we have very very few medics who want to apply to either as there is no early patient contact, and most now want that. So Oxbridge isn't seen as so important by state schools as there are other options that appeal more.

As someone who worked for the NHS in Oxford I'd actually tell a student to go to a big city. All the junior Dr's were Oxford grads and lots did not live in the real world.

We had one who was genuinely puzzled because a patient brought her 4 children with her, it was the school holidays and the Dr couldn't understand why she didn't leave them with 'the nanny'.

The odd time we got a patients who didn't speak English sent them into a spin, and off looking for the one member of staff who spoke a second language, not the same language as the patient.

From DD's sixth form experience her school didnt really give much guidance at all about HE. There did seem to be an attitude that students either applied to Oxford/Cambridge or went to the local (non Russell Group) university. Nothing in between. No guidance about looking at courses, teaching methods etc.

This is a school with a high proportion of students coming from non HE families so there isnt the home experience to call on. Many students suffer badly with imposter syndrome. A very bright friend of DD's, predicted high grade A levels, holding a medical school offer, dropped out of sixth form during the final term because he suddenly devloped a very bad case of imposter syndrome. His friends tried to help him but there was no support from the school itself.

To me this is the problem. It isnt that students arent being directed to apply to Oxford/Cambridge it is that they arent being directed at all. They arent supported to make the HE applications which will work for them. They arent being helped to choose between courses and institutions. They arent being helped to weigh up the different options and the consequences of different options.

Our local state secondary is famous for giving all the children an oxbridge talk. The tell them that private school children are massively disadvantaged and if they apply they will get in.

Initially I was very impressed with thus, what it doesn't do though is provide any support to follow this up. So in a way its just setting children up to fail. They have been doing this for years and I think they had one child get in, yet there are many very clever pupils there.

Conversely a local sixth form college has a proper oxbridge programme and they have a 15 per cent oxbridge success rate.

Travelban it doesn't just set up students to fail, it sets them up to feel like failures.

Schools shouldn't be setting students up with a kind of Oxbridge or bust mentality.

Schools should be helping students to sift through the different options. Encourage them to aim high but not beyond what they can achieve. Encourage students who could be going to achieve good grades to look beyond the local university.

Many of DD's friends were frightened of the idea of moving away from the town they had been born in and that all their family lived in and had never moved away from even temporarily.

That is what schools need to overcome. Get students to consider and evaluate different courses and institutions and not just go for the safe and familiar and realistic Oxbridge applications will come out of that.

I know 3 kids who did go to oxbridge (2 Cambs, Oxford) 2 left because they were bullied incessantly by the ex boarding school kids for being gay and in one case she was kicked out for having a genetic condition (that she was unaware of at 18) that required medical treatment for around 6 months and they refused to let her take a year out. All graduated from another university who respected them for who they are and allowed young lady with the medical condition to enter straight into the second year then study part time.

Btw, 80% of full academic bursaries to private schools are for boys. This is because boys schools often have far bigger endowments because they are (a) older and (b) have had more distinguished former students who have bequeathed then money rather than sexism per se. Dd was identified as extremely gifted and all local schools are universally rubbish so her teacher asked for permission to seek a scholarship which they had successfully done the year before (full scholarship to Harrow) but she couldn't find anything above 20% with a means tested element which we'd be unable to qualify for as the cut off was £40k
We need good schools for all that suits their needs no a few cherry picked kids and a postcode lottery for grammar schools (none in my county)

Very very strongly agree with Louise Richardson. Even plenty of grammar schools heads can be lacking in aspiration for their pupils. It's an absolutely central reason for bright students not applying to Oxbridge from the state (incl grammar school) sector.

(Not even going to get into the Oxbridge-is-rubbish dialogue. As far as medicine goes, its medical schools are top rated in the world: Harvard, Oxford then Cambridge. A desire for early patient contact on the part of keenie beanie 18 yr olds is less important to some than a really good scientific background and as a patient I'd certainly put scientific competence over bedside chat (obviously its also a silly myth that the most competent can't also have good chat)).

sashh well all I can say to that story is that I took my seven young DC to my eighth school holiday time baby scan at the John Radcliffe and neither the consultant (Oxford educated) nor any of the junior doctors (Oxford educated in this instance - happened to be a cousin of a neighbour) or students (by definition Oxford educated, or in the process of being) batted an eyelid. They just said Hi.

I NEVER said Oxbridge is rubbish. Please do not tell fibs. I said it wasn't everyone's cup of tea. My school runs a fab Oxbridge programme and kids visit both several times. This means some love it and do apply but some don't as they prefer other Universities. And as a school we support that decision and don't pressure them to apply to Oxbridge just because they can. State schools have no worries about our leavers destinations because our funding doesn't rely on it. I can understand why private schools need to have a certain % going.

mumsneedwine you're not the only poster on this thread but to be fair, in relation to medicine, you are doing Oxbridge down despite both unis clearly being outstanding on any objective basis. You certainly don't speak for all and perhaps not even most 17/ 18 yr old applicants when you say early patient contact is where it's at.

Also, while your own school may be both aspirational for its students while at the same time judging things nicely for each and every one of them, unfortunately there are far too many schools across the UK which crush aspiration or at the very best do nothing to raise it. It's a strange thing to link it to funding....

Well if that schools are failing their students as evidenced by their chronic failure to produce graduates of a sufficient standard to get into places like Oxbridge, good jobs, etc. What exactly are you expecting? That universities and employers choose less qualified candidates out of pity? That would both grossly unfair and also harmful to the institutions in question.

Out of curiosity, how large is your Y13 cohort and how many students apply successfully to Oxbridge and is the trend upwards or downwards or static? I don't see that the answers could identify you and I'm just interested, given the clearly good nature of your programme.

Not to mention a lot of state schools tell their students not to apply to oxbridge in an attempt to boost their destinations results.

We have about 350 in our sixth form. And I am not doing Oxbridge down - they are amazing places to study. I'm just saying for some students there are other options that appeal more. Some people can get very snippy about Oxbridge !!! And they produce fab doctors, no worse or better than anywhere else. Not sure why anyone thinks I'm being negative - different students look for different things and for medicine some want early patient contact. Their choice - not better or worse. Hope that's clear now.

Are some state schools letting children down? Yes.

Is it convenient that the VC of Oxford chooses to have a go at the state system rather than use their position of power and influence to raise any number of bigger, more pressing issues that contribute to educational disadvantage? Totally.

We couldn't have someone VC of Oxford talking about social deprivation and the challenges facing schools in post-industrial areas or areas of coastal deprivation could we? She couldn't possibly talk about year on year education reforms? She couldn't possibly talk about how independent schools can sit easier courses than the state sector and that gives them another leg up (iGCSE English has coursework and open book exams and speaking and listening in some versions of it, state course is 100% closed book exam).

I think someone pointed out that Oxford is taking fewer UK students year on year at the moment as well. I can only conclude that she has zero interest in educational outcomes for typical UK state students and has every interest in milking the international cash cow whilst keeping the student population in the same image it's always been.

I agree with all of that ! Forgot to mention our stats, which vary hugely each year. Think the most was 17 and least was 3. Usually a pretty good hit rate if they get an interview. We are a comprehensive with 2000 students of all abilities. Had 7 vets and 6 medics this year. More importantly most kids will get to their first choice Uni/College/apprenticeship/job.

Thanks mumsneedwine - the higher numbers are clearly impressive for a cohort of 175. I'm guessing it's the more able who've stayed for sixth form historically - but nevertheless presumably a much wider ability range than in a grammar.

I'm a bit dubious always about the 'get to their first choice' thing - lots of schools simply mean by that the firm on their UCAS form. It doesn't usually equate to their 'top choice when applying'. It might mean that but it doesn't necessarily, by any means. Lots of weasel words used by schools generally (that is aimed at schools generally and the smoke and mirrors type of stuff, not at you mumsneedwine).

😁😁 know what you mean. We are pretty good at getting kids to aspire high and we are very keen to not let them take the unconditional offers without lots of thought. First choice should be where they really want to go - not where they settle for ! We got a ridiculous number this year, from some very good Unis. We also teach BTECs and vocational courses so have a very wide range of kids staying on, although they do need 5 GCSEs. Have a bunch applying to dance schools next year and usually have a few going to Conservatoire. We try to give them all the options and support whatever we choose. Apprenticeships are becoming much more popular, especially with the 3 A* lot who just don't fancy more studying. Some amazing opportunities out there !