Oxford VC blaming state schools for low Oxbridge entry!

[Miljah]

Am speechless- but not surprised, tbh.

Yes, top private schools do pluck clever, poor students out of state schools, not necessarily in an act of altruism, though, but to justify their charitable status and to boost their academic success ratings.

They take these DC out of often, large, all-comer comps with the usual panoply of big classes, poor equipment in falling down buildings, a demoralised work force, challenging behaviours, disruption, SEN, both diagnosed and not (and even then poorly funded), some low community expectations and so forth; and then place them in small classes of clever, motivated fellow pupils, in beautiful buildings with top of the range equipment, better paid staff, forensic guidance, very motivated parents- and thus they head off to Oxbridge.

Louise Richardson, Oxford Vice Chancellor muses that state schools are failing 'their brightest' (those left after the indies have creamed off the ones they want) by not offering a similar service.

How can you be so lacking in critical thinking skills yet get to be VC of Oxford?

Has anyone actually looked at the Sats results of DC living in the coastal towns mentioned above and then checked to see how many come out at 18 with suitable A levels and even a possibility of going to Oxford? I do suspect the schools are not good enough but are there likely to be many suitable candidates in Clacton, or similar towns? Not sure.

Until recently IGCSE exams were considered more difficult and this was when more Independent school pupils went to Oxford than state pupils. You cannot have it both ways and say that more difficult exams are causing problems when more state pupils now go than independently educated ones.

I do think quite a few state schools don’t actively push Oxford due to their pupils not being interested. They also don’t have staff members who have been and it’s not seen as better by parents or teachers or DC. There are undoubtedly schools who could influence more and make an effort with DC but choose not to. I don’t think it’s money either. It’s making sure DC are given every assistance in lessons and informed about what to do to maximise opportunity. The idea that every independent child is coached for application is wrong. They are not but I would suggest many of them are self starters and realise what is required and don’t turn their backs on it. They want to go.

For what it’s worth, my LA has an AWPU of way below £5000 pa for secondary. That would be riches indeed!

I do suspect the schools are not good enough but are there likely to be many suitable candidates in Clacton, or similar towns? Not sure.

I'd take a guess that nowadays the brightest kids from Clacton if they have good advice and parental support get the train to Colchester, for sixth form at least.

Good God,
If any prospect child from Clacton or Withernsea, Hornsea or Thorngumbald is reading this thread, and you know kids from these places can be just as bright as has the kid from Kensington and Chelsea or Buckingham or Devon, I bet they have just instantly decide, FCK Oxbridge, set of stuck up CNTS go there.

Maybe Oxbridge and Oxford could stop sending kids from Leeds/Sheffield to Hull. as it Yorkshire after all, maybe don't hold all your widening access talks at the 2 private schools in the area.
Maybe once in a while turn up or send some to the local careers events. so the first time kids see you isn't the local UCAS fair at Hull university 5 weeks before you shut your applications down.

Maybe try and understand the target schools don't have dedicated how to get into Oxbridge teams, but part time exam officers , who works 2 hours a week, a over worked deputy head of sixth form, who also teaches years 7 to 11 plus 12 and 13, on top of writing all uni applications and giving kids career help. Maybe understand that the school has less then 10% going to university, is already partner to Hull university, is heavily involved with CUScarborough,.
Understand that 3 educational charities are investing time and money into the school, ie Siruis (BP Chemicals chartity) then we have 2 national charities taking year 12 and 13 pupils to mentoring sessions, national criminology debates, history debates and museums, geography field trips. there is another issue, these are government backed and designed for inner cities, not coastal areas.

The VC could realise that even when these charities, have helped we are still out on a limb.
Here you go, Ds1 and his 14 criminology cohorts (years 12/13) went on a trip, free fully paid by the government. They went to Nuneaton, special criminology and law society event to show off the workings of the law system and careers open to all.
He came back with numerous leaflets and schemes open to attend.
Law society etc nearest one Manchester, Newcastle and Leicester.
What the fuck, not one in Yorkshire. when in year 8,9,10 he was into chemistry and physics, we did Hull universities brilliant Christmas talks.
But nearest physics or chemistry groups Leeds, Manchester or Newcastle.

People on here and the VC of Oxford don't have a clue, you live in your own privileged bubbles. If you want to reach these communities you have to get them in. if every year to turn down the brightest, who do apply, and believe me, using Oxford's own tables at least 1 tries every year from our 4 nearest comps, and every year none get a place.

because if it's important for BAME students to be apply to see they have peers to study with, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that, it is bloody important for coastal kids to know that they have peers too.

Here is some proof, up to 6 years ago no one ever when to Lancaster university, yes not RG but top ten, then the daughter of our next door neighbour went for English with her friend for maths. Last year 5 went, this year 12 are hoping to go.
Go figure Oxford's VC.

so easy to sit on £120000 a year salary and attack people on less then £35000 for not doing your job. If my employer had a scheme running since the 1980's to widen access and was still failing either the people running would be sacked or the scheme closed and a new opened to make it work.
But for Oxford it is always the kids and schools fault.

2BoysandaCairn you really don't have a clue.

You neither have a monopoly of poverty where you live nor do you have the worst funded schools. Also, I think you wholly misunderstand Louise Richardson's point in the piece and her general position on access.

Also Devon is a bit random.... So no rural or coastal poverty there....

If I was a 'prospect child from clacton' today and if I felt wasn't getting much decent advice from my school about uni applications I think I'd say fuck them and read the uni websites for myself and see what they said.

And what Oxford and Cambridge say is perfectly clear, they want students from all backgrounds to apply, and they give good information on the process.

I see once again two people who are in the "in crowd", one with numerous Dc at the place and one with one at Cambridge and grand parents who went.
What would you know, Holderness is the coastal area of our county, goes from Spurn Point to Bridlington, there are 5 comprehensives covering the area, all but one is in Ofsted's coastal school report.
In the last decade none has a pupil study at Oxford, 3 have gone to Cambridge, but 1 is the son of two ex Cambridge graduates, one who worked there.
Further up you have Filey, Scarborough and Whitby all with very similar outcomes.
I notice North and North East Lincolnshire also get no one into either too. Lincolnshire (a fully grammar county, mumsnetters solution to all ills) gets 130, but that's less than 10% of it's kids and the coastal region gets no one.

So either the Yorkshire and Lincolnshire coast are full of complete and utter fools, or somewhere Oxbridge's scheme is failing.
I said on another thread last year, that the same 8 secondary schools in East Yorkshire get all of Oxbridge entrants. All are in the west of the county or in the county town.

If you and Oxford think people like me should butt out of the conversation, fine we will, but we are the target of Louise Richardson's complaints. Not parents of children who went to top rated grammar schools.
Ignore us do, but then we will continue to say it's not for the likes of us, go to Lancaster, Newcastle, Leeds.
Or as the leader of North Lincolnshire council said, he is a Conservative, when asked why no one went to Oxbridge.
because we want our children to stay local and study local, that's why we encourage them to do degrees in our local FE college and are working with our neighbours in North east Lincs to open a university, like the one in Scarborough or Lincoln, to challenge the idea you have to go to Oxbridge to succeed.

You know what he might be right, after all Oxford does not want us after all and if people like me point out our issues, we are laughed at and told to go away.

Finally look at the BBC News report. if you think northern coastal areas aren't special cases, because we are likely to lose upto 20% of our under 30's by 2039. Scarborough 10% and ERYC (Holderness, we are the coast) 9%.
The south coast will grow by up to 13%.
This is on top of 40 year decline in population as it is, 2.5% in most years, we don't have bulge years at our schools, we have a declining school population. Holderness is already missing 8% of the youth the SE has, and we have 5% missing from the 30 to 55 year olds. But we have 18% too many over the age of 70.
Our economy is collapsing, and so is much of the northern coastal areas. You and Oxford can hide your heads in the sand, but look at all northern coastal areas, apart from Newcastle and we are Brexit central, and support is getting stronger.
Britain is no longer a place of social mobility, or a place divided north to south. sadly there is a least 5 economies, London then the SE, then cities like Manchester/Leeds, then the rest of the centre and finally deprived coastal areas.

But no your right my kids grow up in a paradise, where when we choose there secondary schools of our local 5- 3 where in SM, one was RI and one going onto SM. Today 8 years later 4 are SM or rated inadequate and 1 is waiting to see if it can get RI.
But kids still leave with 3 A levels at A and still get rejected by Oxford.
But Louise Richardson is correct it's all our fault, we should just sell up, leave our lives and move to the catchments/pay to go to the 8 schools which send 50% of Oxfords student body.

People say we have chips on our shoulders, because we say Oxfords not for us, No we are northern and honest and truthfully to our kids and say no one goes there so go elsewhere.

maybe Louise Richardson should leave her ivory tower in Oxford and spend this autumn touring our counties, she might learn something.

I have taught many children from Clacton (and more specifically some from Jaywick). And they do in deed get in Oxbridge and have w fab time. The Clacton secondaries do have A Level teaching but historically (it's changing over time) the students who wanted to do a range of academic A levels would hope to go to either of the Colchester grammars or the sixth form college.
All three of this schools have excellent support in place for Oxbridge candidates.
It's interesting what you say about 'wanting to keep our students'. We have an excellent local university. But our students want to leave to go to university. It's what the vast majority of their teachers did.
A large part of the issue for coastal areas is the quality of schools. They need a LOT of investment and encouragement for teachers to work there (they have a larger struggle for recruitment for a variety of reasons). A large injection of money worked very well for London schools. This model needs replicating.
It is disingenuous to imply or state that Oxford and Cambridge (and Imperial) are not good. They are fantastic. They might, however, not be the best place for an individual student who studies a specific subject. Teachers with good knowledge of the university system and their students are essential.
They cannot admit people who do not apply.

What would you know,

more than you imagine! ... I once was that 'prospect kid from Clacton' - but a time when its grammar had turned comp and there was a dearth of advice from the school and no internet. And, at that point Cambridge was still '7th term entry' and the school no longer gave any help with that...

But Cambridge and Oxford have changed their exams since then, and there's loads of information available - just a shame there's also so much misinformation. And I'm glad to hear from grammarteacher that there's a sixth form college now etc on the Essex coast, and unsurprised my guess about some bright kids going to Colchester wasn't far off.

But I'm sure the schools there do need investment - the 'coastal schools' problem has been known for years, it's a disgrace that these impoverished areas weren't give help when London was.

Anyway, a red brick served me well - and we'd have been perfectly happy if DD had gone to one - but it is simply wrong for adults to inhibit children's choices now if they 'continue to say it's not for the likes of us,' or overdo the 'want our children to stay local and study local' line.

Pointing out issues is good, but when you're perpetuating myths then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Yes that's absolutely correct: you are part of the problem 2BoysandaCairn. Coastal poverty is a big issue so let's see the schools get a big cash injection plus (since cash is never enough) top quality leadership brought in where the HTs sweep away all the negative stuff which you appear to be a mouthpiece for, and replace it with a 'Can do' approach. The London model is probably exactly what's required, as GrammarTeacher says.

As for 'What would you know' - the answer is a lot, actually. I've worked in this area to try to do - as opposed to moan - and as a child of a refugee who came to England with literally a suitcase and a few clothes I've been able to see at first hand the transformative power of education. But it has to harnessed with a positive mind, and that you lack in spades 2Boys, judging by your posts. Please don't tell me I'm in the 'in' crowd; I didn't pay my way in or pull any strings - but I also didn't just sit around moaning.

Waiting until secondary age is too late.

Primary school should be where smart kids first hear aboutOxbridge.

Then they can start secondary with an aim in mind.

The support needs to be right from the start there- telling them what subjects Oxbridge do and what subjects to choose for gcse a level.

Then they could focus school trips to the areas.

Do all schools even keep a copy of each years prospectus on campus??

You don't need special Oxbridge support to get in and certainly not from Primary! You just need decent teaching and then encouragement after GCSE results are out. That would be extraordinary pressure, from Primary - I don't think even the smartest (normal) primary aged child would have a clue about Oxford or Cambridge at that age, nor should they - they should be playing etc - and nor do they need to.

Primary school should be where smart kids first hear aboutOxbridge.

No, ita with goodbye- maybe they should have some vague notions then about all the exciting future opportunities including universities so they can start to see the point in doing well at school (if that's not being instilled in the home) within their capabilities.
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Do all schools even keep a copy of each years prospectus on campus??

Yes - they all have the internet nowadays.

2boys,you have no idea,to state that children leave with 3As at A level and"still get rejected by Oxford",shows you dont have the first idea how competitive it is,I know boys that got 4A* and didn't get in..

Isn't part of the issue the mixture of "push" and "pull" factors? Asking the universities to solve the problem - they can create incentives and encouragement to "pull" students in. But equally there are factors at the school and community level that can be looked at to create a "push". Increasing equality of opportunities across the population - which is really what I want to see - will need both push and pull to be implemented.

I agree with the push and pull factors.

Cetainly from my DD's school there was very little in the way of concerted 'push'. There was a trip run to Oxford or Cambridge but little else. There was a kind of strange approach. Students were expected to apply either to Oxford/Cambridge or to their local university (great for vocational courses no use if students wanted to study, say, physics or chemistry). No talk about how to weigh up different courses. No discussion about whether to strive for a conditional offer or settle for an unconditional.

This lack of push did let a lot of students down. We are in an area of very low take-up of higher education. There is little community push to go away to study. This means students are seen as a bit odd if they actively look to move away.

Blimey, that's about the most misguided approach possible, gnome. I'm curious, what type and size of school is it?

ErrolTheDragon it's an in and out of SM only school in the town. An academy, one of the ones that the academy trust threw in the towel on a short while ago. It is a consortium sixth form (three sixth forms in one) so a bit difficult to pin down numbers.

The consortium nature is a big part of the problem. Students are for ever travelling between the three schools so hard to pull together a coherant program of activities.

Sounds like maybe it needs joined up thinking - and investment! - and the creation of a sixth form college?

ErrolTheDragon I agree. There is a sixth form in the next county which did this very successfully.

Goodbyestranger - 2Boys is nearly correct about the worst finding. Her area had the lowest funding per child until the formula rejig 2/3 years ago.

Agree the coastal strategy has to work. Quality of teaching is an issue & obviously impacts aspiration. It's turned into generational mindset, went to school in local area, university in local area, now teach in local area. When teachers have followed that path why not recommend what was has given you a decent life?

There are some brilliant SATs/added value in NE Lincs primaries but it goes pear-shaped from there.

Maybe oxbridge can propose some people (from poor families) who might not have scored brilliantly at a levels (but v well compared to average at their school) to do a foundation year where they do pre-U in 1 year before starting uni (either at oxbridge or other places) the next year? Since the number of these is small, perhaps the govt could cover cost of tuition?

You mean something like this maybe?

www.lmh.ox.ac.uk/prospective-students/foundation-year/lmh-foundation-year-students/what-foundation-year

Except it's the college not the government funding it.

LoveGrowsWhere perhaps 2BoysandaCairn might like to compare historic levels of funding with Devon, which is (rather curiously) selected for his/ her ire.