Attending Church, purely to get to a certain school

[sleepydad3000]

They're aren't many things I feel so strongly about, but this issue is one of them. I am currently looking at schools for my daughter. I am a non religious person and my partner is a none practising Catholic, doesn't go to church at all anymore.

I personally think it's wrong on a moral level to exploit a church for 6 months or however long, just to get your child to a certain school. It's almost like, "Oh hi, yes thankyou, I've got what I needed, you'll never see me again!"

2 schools near me are both decent, 1 outstanding and 1 good (Ofsted ratings) interestingly enough, the NON Catholic school has the higher mark as of 2017.... just saying. Both schools are great in my view, religion aside. But I'd feel awful and wrong and like I was cheating or manipulating the system, just to get my girl to a certain school, and then waving bye bye to the church after, as I know for a fact, my partner and I have no intention of going to church afterwards.

But the proportion of children/families with good values is higher in a faith school. and your evidence for that statement is?

Maybe faith schools are full of people who are happy to be hypocrites if that is how you get ahead?

Maybe faith schools are full of people who are happy to be hypocrites if that is how you get ahead?

Hypocrites who care about their children and raise them to be decent. Sounds fine to me. I just want my son to have nice friends and not be bullied or surrounded by naughty kids whose parents don’t give a shit.

DD attends a non-faith school (with a number of parents who have very strong Christian faith, including her best friend) and is surrounded by children like that.

It’s important to remember that most faith schools are owned by churches, and that church schools may therefore impose Admissions criteria (within the law) that suit them. Church schools may be independent (and have high fees) or be state subsidized (and not be fee paying).

Hypocrites who care about their children and raise them to be decent. Sounds fine to me. I just want my son to have nice friends and not be bullied or surrounded by naughty kids whose parents don’t give a shit.

Have to agree. I'd have sold my soul to get my DS into a good school and him avoiding the state crap comp alternatives. I suffered a crap comp and wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's the exact same crap comp that is in our catchment (we didn't move far!!) and it is still crap after 40 years (latest Ofsted "needs improvement") despite millions being spent on new facilities over the past 20 years. Now it's earmarked for closure as it's massively undersubscribed (about half the numbers it had when I went) - parents are bussing their kids to the next county to avoid it!

MariaNovella they are not owned by churches, they are state funded faith schools.

I am guilty of this -lapsed catholic. Dp athiest

Went to church when dd was small pretty muchto get her into school.

I actually wanted her in a catholic school though. Im just a rubbish catholic who doesnt go to church.

Now my dd is at a catholic secondary school and is takes an active role in the liturgical activities in school. She gets alot from it.

She attends mass at school - compulsory and also voluntarily and is part of the chaplaincy. Im pleased for her

I suffered a crap comp and wouldn't wish that on anyone

Me too. Perhaps that’s why we’re willing to do anything to ensure our DC avoid it. At my school I saw kids bullied, attacked, sexually harassed, even set on fire, giving blow jobs in the playground, pregnant at 12, smoking in primary school and using drink and drugs by secondary school. My life was a living hell for years and I’m still suffering the mental consequences. I will literally sell my soul to avoid that happening to my DS and I don’t care what anyone thinks about it.

So did I VelvetPineapple and it was a faith comp!!!!!!

Margo - no, yours is a common misconception. The various churches founded schools across England well before the state became involved in education. The state decided to subsidize some church schools in the middle of the 20th century. Other church schools became independent and collect fees from parents. Churches (or related trusts and foundations) own the schools they founded.

I’m atheist but I’d like my DS to attend a school where the children have been raised with Christian values - to be kind and respectful and hardworking, and not steal or lie etc.

@VelvetPineapple I assume your dc is all of those things despite not being brought up in a Christian home?

Er no, it isn't! Check the facts - they can all be found here: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06972/SN06972.pdf

"Sugarbum. If you are not religious wtf were you doing in a church every Sunday? Wtf are your children doing with every hymn, prayer, vow, and so on. I am not religious either but I can see that lying about what you believe in to the extent that you will raise your children in a faith you have no interest in, is short sighted and disingenuous.
You don’t have to live a lie to get an education."

First of all. Calm down darling. I suppose I shall have to get scribbling. To be honest the whole subject doesn't occupy much of my mind space. But you've got me thinking. So I shall write it down since I did decide to contribute to this thread.

1. I'm not living a lie. I (we) are meeting the criteria necessary to get our children a BETTER education than the alternative that is on offer. This is what is important to us. That criteria for achieving this 'goal' is to attend church. Not every Sunday actually. Once a month is fine.
   I either take the youngest to Sunday school, or DH attends the service. The eldest doesn't have to come. I therefore wouldn't say I'm 'raising my children in a faith'. They are certainly exposed to it, yes. As they are at school. I don't think singing a few hymns is doing any harm. They are not being indoctrinated into religion. We live in a Christian society dictated by Christian festivals. Of course they are exposed to it at all times. Possibly, because I was brought up going to Sunday school (to get me out of the house) and going to church on Sunday (because I was at boarding school) this is why I don't think much of it. My parents certainly were not religious. So they were mostly indifferent to the fuss as am I.
   You can disagree of course you can. Call me short-sighted. I don't mind. In our minds, we are doing what we need to do to obtain the result we want to achieve.

2. The criteria for school admissions doesn't mention specifically being religious actually, but I accept that of course the school would see it as deception. They don't ask that our children are christened, or attend church themselves. Again, you can call it living a lie if you want to. I'm not going to disagree. I just don't care what you think or how you call it, in this instance. If the headmaster asked me outright, which he is never going to do, I'd tell them I met the criteria as required for admissions.

3. I've never said I'm religious. To anyone. In fact the opposite. I told the vicar a long time ago that I am not Christian. He gives no f*cks. He's a very lovely man who is also a father with three children attending the same school as my eldest. He gets it. He is happy to see familiar or otherwise faces in his services.
   I don't pray. I don't mind my children saying a prayer once a day. I sing hymns cos I like a good sing song. I don't mind my children singing hymns. I don't take communion. I don't mind if my kids do. Maybe this is because of they way I was brought up (see above) I think having my children attend Sunday school now and again is beneficial. The ethos is positive and the message they give is about love and kindness and acceptance. Oh and they do fun crafts. I have told them that I do not believe in the existence of 'god', but that they can think what they want to. I have told them that the stories that they tell at Sunday school are just that - stories - they may or may not be based on truth, that's up to them to decide, but they are trying to teach young children specific values. They know that we wouldn't bother going to church itself though though if we didn't have to in order to tick the boxes. They understand 'grey areas'.

4. The church is for everyone. Its open to everyone. As the vicar points out all the time, and he is big time religious :) Its a beautiful venue. I'm not mortally offended by religion. I think it must be lovely to have faith. I just don't. Its a community. Many of our local events are based around the church (not just the C of E one we attend but also the local baptist church)

5. The school is for everyone. It is a C of E school, but its also partially selective, which means children of all faiths who are academically or musically gifted can be offered a place. They have to be sensitive to all faiths, and to non-faiths. They don't ram it down their throats, but there is certainly more exposure to Christianity than our local secondary.

6. I've thought enough for today...

I went to a CofE school. The kids were awful. It was one of the worst schools in London and still is. And the religious lessons affected me deeply, I don’t think that anyone undertaking such a route should over look their children’s spirtitual wellness.

This view that church people are better than other people is rubbish. As someone said, most of them are faking a belief in god and those values anyway so why would the children be any better than those of parents who aren’t willing to lie to lie their way in.

As a churchgoer, I could not care less whether people are only there to tick the boxes to secure a place for their kids in the state school of their choice.

The word "hypocrisy" has been used in this thread, but I don't think that's fair at all. In my view, people are entirely justified in turning up for x number of services to fulfil the church attendance requirements and explaining - if necessary - to their kids that that's exactly what they're doing.

This behaviour is just a rational response to the unfair and unjustifiable situation where state-funded schools are permitted to discriminate on religious grounds.

Instead of accusing these parents of hypocrisy, it would be much fairer and more useful to attack the real cause of the problem: the existence of faith schools full stop.

Personally I do not believe that either state or independent schools should have a 'faith' ethos. If you want your kids to grow up in a faith, you can take them to church/mosque/temple/whatever in your own time. But kids should not be inculcated with a faith under the same umbrella as their lessons in physics and geography.

Yeah, Leviticus is all about respectfulness and kindness. There are plenty Christian values my kids could do without, thanks.

Velvet I understand that and, as I said upthread, I have no issue in people using church to get their child into the school they think best for them. I just think that some of your assertions are nonsense. I'm pretty certain that some of the churchgoers in my area are, for example, a lot more homophobic than the non-churchgoers.

“Dependent on school type, having a faith designation may impact also on staffing policy, what is included in the Religious Education curriculum, and the ownership of the school buildings”

and the ownership of the school buildings

The school land and buildings in Church Schools are the property of the founding Trust

from the Diocese of Canterbury website

Oh seriously MariaNovella?! The Church of England website will give you the breakdown of all the different types of school it supports, if that is the route you want to go down www.churchofengland.org/more/education-and-schools/church-schools-and-academies#na.

You can turn yourself inside out but at the end of the day, schools within the state sector are state funded.

State funded does not mean state owned. You are confusing two separate issues.

Seriously the church do own the school buildings and lands. Think how much money the church could make it It got rid of the schools and converted the properties to flats.
Obviously they wouldn't do this because of having morals and planning permission!

No, I'm not. The land on which some state funded schools may be owned by a local diocese but that does not mean that the church 'owns' the school.

If the choice is between an 'outstanding' faith school and a 'needs improvement' non-faith school, wouldn't you do the necessary in order to get your child a place at the outstanding school?