Attending Church, purely to get to a certain school

[sleepydad3000]

They're aren't many things I feel so strongly about, but this issue is one of them. I am currently looking at schools for my daughter. I am a non religious person and my partner is a none practising Catholic, doesn't go to church at all anymore.

I personally think it's wrong on a moral level to exploit a church for 6 months or however long, just to get your child to a certain school. It's almost like, "Oh hi, yes thankyou, I've got what I needed, you'll never see me again!"

2 schools near me are both decent, 1 outstanding and 1 good (Ofsted ratings) interestingly enough, the NON Catholic school has the higher mark as of 2017.... just saying. Both schools are great in my view, religion aside. But I'd feel awful and wrong and like I was cheating or manipulating the system, just to get my girl to a certain school, and then waving bye bye to the church after, as I know for a fact, my partner and I have no intention of going to church afterwards.

I prioritize my child. Don't take her to church though.

You're still talking nonsense.

I'm a churchgoer in a city where I'd say most of the 'desirable' schools are church. It's not that easy a system to exploit. The schools will be asking for 4-6 years regular attendance. If you've done that, I'd say you've earned your place! Iirc, the form asks about church attendance not deep and unwavering faith. (Mine don't go to church schools)

The point is that any sort of selection process will get a school a higher % of organised, aware, involved, more privileged parents. Simply because you have to do more than just put the nearest school on the form. That’s why over subscribed faith schools do “better”. Undersubscribed faith schools perform as you would expect from the catchment. It’s the element of selection that makes the difference.

It wouldn't bother me if other people went to church for pragmatic reasons. The kids might pick up some useful lessons, and I think tax-payer funded schools should be open to all, with places awarded by lottery if oversubscribed.

Bertrand but you can say the same for unselective schools, can't you - I mean, switched-on parents will do their research, move into catchment areas years in advance etc. Basically you can be active or passive with regards to where your child goes to school.

I personally have done this (and am doing this currently for DS2) and I don't give a sh*t about being a hypocrite.
My priority is to get my children into the place that gives them the best opportunities in life and in this instance that place happens to be a church school.
If me and DH have to pretend to believe to get them in, then that is what we will do (vicar is aware of this and doesn't care either - as previously said, he wants bums on seats, and preferably volunteers to mow the churchyard also)

I've told them they can ignore any god stuff and to just go with it. The school DS1 attends is the best performing in the entire region (its partially selective though so those figures will be skewed - he was never going to get in that route) and I believe its the best place for his particular personality. Not convinced about DS2 but that's another thread.
If it sits badly with you, I get it. But for me I don't feel strongly enough about NOT being a Christian to remove that option for my children.

How do you explain the hypocrisy to your children?

I have respect for the reasons faith schools were set up - to provide education for all families of the parish, and by the catholic church to address the discrimination against catholic children in CoE schools.

But now they need to keep their commitment to fairness and justice up to date.

Access to State education should not be determined by the religious practices of parents. The government should bite the bullet and pay rent or take a lease on the buildings owned by the churches. Admission should not be based on religious factors. And to take it further and discrimination against all religions except CoE and atheists as demonstrated by the CoE being the established church, and at the heart of our constitution.

(from the manifesto of the Hotpot Republican Party)

As an interim amendment, the BertrandRussell Proposal is a a good one.

My dm forced me to be confirmed to improve my chances of getting into a certain school.
I got my place, but I aced the entrance exam so I may have got a place anyway. I also learnt contempt for my mum’s hypocracy
Since doing the whole school admission process for my ds, I’ve learned some sympathy & respect for her determination to give me the best she could, but as a non-believer, I would never send my son to a church school.

Faced with no reasonable alternative, I’d rather mortgage my soul & go fee-paying. And there are plenty who would condemn me.
In the end, most parents will do their best for their child.

"How do you explain the hypocrisy to your children?"

Well I tell them exactly what I wrote here. I totally agree that access to State education should not be determined by the religious practices of parents. However, right now, it is. Its shit. But it is.
The church aspect is a very small part of the school day. You can zone it out. They are (were) also at a C of E primary school. This wasn't my choice, it was what we were given, but again, the religious aspect is very small. The rest of the time, they are learning. Getting an education. That is my priority.

The point is that any sort of selection process will get a school a higher % of organised, aware, involved, more privileged parents. Simply because you have to do more than just put the nearest school on the form. That’s why over subscribed faith schools do “better”. Undersubscribed faith schools perform as you would expect from the catchment. It’s the element of selection that makes the difference.

Our faith school in undersubscribed, in (as I’ve already said) a very deprived area but has been rated excellent for many years and achieves good results.

You be surprised at how “organised, aware” and “involved” even the least privileged of parents can be.

Eurgh. Whenever I hear someone has done this, I always think less of them. It’s just a bit grubby and low tbh.

My priority is to get my children into the place that gives them the best opportunities in life and cheapen faith in to the bargain. What an example.

How to get ahead in life 101: Lie.

“You be surprised at how “organised, aware” and “involved” even the least privileged of parents can be.“

No I wouldn’t.

It is a state school and the people are fulfilling the criteria to apply. Why shouldn't they?

State schools that discriminate by religion are utterly wrong in my opinion. The state should provide schools for all children and not allow selection based on religion. I cannot believe it still goes on.

I literally couldn't care less if someone sees the obvious flaw in the system, which is that belief in that religion is entirely unnecessary and if they actually take the time to go to bloody mass for an hour every sunday for 2 years to get their kid in - well good for them.

All 3 of my DC attend our local church school. We are, and always have been regular church goers. My DC were all baptised at our church and have attended since birth so I felt pretty confident that they would get a place at the heavily oversubscribed church school. For us, it wasn't just about the education and ofsted reports etc, it was also about them attending a school that shared our ethos, our values and our faith.

You can always see the parents that are just using the church to get their kids into the school. They come along when their DC are around 2 (to get the minimum 2 years of attendance in) and will usually make a big fuss when there so that their presence is noted. The vicar is quite pragmatic about this and the view is that whilst they are there they have some exposure to God - which they otherwise might not have done. Likewise, if the child does end up going to the church school then they are going to be exposed to a way of thinking that they would not have experienced otherwise.

If parents are prepared to put the effort in to bring their DC to church every week and then happy for their DC's to continue to attend worship (as most church schools will require as part of the school timetable) then I'm not concerned. Their child is going to pick up valuable religious education which can only be seen as a good thing from my POV.

FanFckingTastic out of interest, why do you think the state should fund a school that excludes those who don't share your ethos, values and faith? I'm not trying to be goady, but I do wonder how that can possibly even be remotely christian to exclude children from a state funded school because of the faith of their parents. I'd be really interested to hear how someone of faith sees it.

"Eurgh. Whenever I hear someone has done this, I always think less of them. It’s just a bit grubby and low tbh.
My priority is to get my children into the place that gives them the best opportunities in life and cheapen faith in to the bargain. What an example."

"cheapening faith" really isn't of concern to someone like me though is it? I'm not religious.

It's a school that gets financial support from the State so fuck 'em, I say.

And the fact that people who have faith have a significantly bigger choice of tax payer funded schools than people who don’t is just unacceptable.

Margo - I don't think that my school is excluding kids that don't share the ethos, values and faith. Hence parents like Sugarbum further up thread can send their kids to a church school while not believing in anyway and being quite open about that.

I do think that the state / VA system needs an overhaul.

FanFckingTastic you know that your school is excluding non-faith children. Yes, a small percentage of determined system players will get in, but your school has permission to choose members of the Church of England before other pupils. You have evaded answering my question about how that sits with your Christian values?

I was just coming in to type almost the same as Fan.

It’s interesting that when talking about CofE schools most people consider them ‘state’ schools. Actually they are schools that receive state funding and are controlled differently from the schools simply under the local authority. I personally think that the involvement of the Church - e.g the church inspection process which massively looks at the pastorial aspects of the school - is why they are frequently better.

They are often smaller. They remain able to function in the current climate by the additional support - both financial & in kind - given to them by the Church.

They are not LA schools. I honestly don’t think it’s unreasonable threat preference is given to church goers who support the organisation providing the school. It’s preference not actual entitlement to a place. Just like if you live next door to a school and want your child to go there then preference may be given.

Clearly the real answer is to properly fund and support all schools to be outstanidng so people wouldn’t feel that they aren’t getting into the best school.

Yes, some people try and arguably ‘buck the system’ - they move house, declare relatives addresses etc.

Hopefully in attending church the parents will have prepared both themselves and the children for the type of education they are to receive.

As a Christian and regular churchgoer (Church of Scotland), I don’t mind what reasons bring people to church, as long as they come!
They might be trying to cynically exploit it for school entry, but they will find a welcoming community of worshippers, will experience God’s love, and will have the chance to develop their own faith and relationship with God. They will find a refreshing change from the materialist mindset of secular society, their children will find a place where kindness and sharing are valued way above competitive achievements, and they will be invited to take part in the church’s volunteer work in the community, helping the disadvantaged.
All of these are good things!
Add in the simple pleasures of singing some sublime hymns and having a nice chat over coffee after the service - what’s not to like?!
Our church is fairly full most Sundays, but we can always squeeze in a few more. Give it a try, and not just for school entry. I think you’ll find it uplifting and enjoyable.

My faith school does fantastic things for the community it is part of and the children who attend. Traditionally it has only had about 25% of the children being catholic but this has increased slightly as we’ve had more children who’s parents have come from Eastern Europe move into the area.

Neither my school or the one 100m down the road and with whom we share a playing field is oversubscribed but we repeatedly have the larger class sizes.

Plenty of posters, some particularly vocal seem to see faith school as the work of the devil (ironically) but they are on the whole good school, doing good things for children from all walks of life.