will someone scold and spank me and remined me I am a stubborn socialist guardianista?

[twinsetandpearls]

I have always made my feelings clear about private schools but the family has been working on me again and have ordered a proespectus for a private school that I have been idly flicking through and I have fallen in love with it and even - and this is a big deal for me - looked at the website.

For me this is a huge step and I am feeling sick with guilt, so guilty in fact that I have just re planned all my lessons tomorrow for my classes as some kind of penenance.

I need other socialist guardianistas to take me in hand.

"Pointy - Don't understand how you can be pro the existence of private schools yet object to sending your child to one. You mean theoretically they have a right to exist but practically you cannot stomach them?"

quatt, yes pretty much. Although 'cannot stomach them' is a little strong. I am not annoyed or upset by their existtence at all.

Having state and private is ok with me but having an invreasingly hierarchical and selective state system is not ok.

This sort of thread does make my head hurt though.

and re guilt, it's guilt to do with teh good of society rather than the good of your own child. (If guilt is felt at all)

That's not an entirely inconsistent position.

I accept the right of all sorts of people to do things I disapprove of. But that doesn't mean that I think that if they do them, that they are not dumb for doing so.
Some people genuinely think private schools are worse for their kids, and nearly everyone accepts that some private schools are much worse and some state schools much better.

twinners, you're fab by teh way

I do wonder if private education didn't exist if the state sector would be vastly better. This is a serious question - perhaps someone could shed some light on why the believe this would be the case.

twin, but if more "good" parents used that school yes it might well improve but you're battling against human nature. If you think there should only be one type of school in the UK and every child be obliged to go the local school with bussing to achieve integration which presumably is the pure position, then you serve your position right by lobbying for the law to be changed for that to be so. You don't damage a child by putting it in a sink school knowing that no other good parent will do that because all you do is damage the child. Now if you could getting written undertakings from good local parents en masse to move to the bad school that might be different but you'll never get that thus it is morally objectionable to put a child in anything other than the best school you can afford.

Please will someone explain the moral objection causing the guilty feelings? ATM they jusr seem vague to me. From what you have said, my belief is that these moral objections arise from:-

(1) The schools are fee-paying and the state should pay for decent eduction (Yes, but)

(2) By sending my children to private school I will be unfairly advantaging them because of my wealth (WTF - so it would be okay to lash out an extra £150k on a house thereby moving into the catchment area of a just-about-acceptable school but not to use that same £150k to pay school fees?)

(3) By sending my children to private school I will be depriving the state sector of my child's superior potential as a Bona Fide Middle-Class Child (that's just arrogance isn't it?)

(4) By sending my children to private school I will be depriving the state sector of the benefit of Particularly Laudable Parental Involvement (since my stated objective is to have as little to do with school as possible due to unfeasibly long hours at work, I am not depriving the state sector of anything)

(5) By sending my children to private school I will incur the wrath of a sinister body of people called Guardianistas (Don't want to offend anyone but (a) I don't know any (b) I can't imagine they have a military wing and (c) surely it's none of their business?)

In fact, because of the argument that Xenia and I have previously stated, we are saving the state sector a substantial amount by NOT sending children to state schools.

So what is this guilt really about? Where does it come from?

Good question about whether state education would be better if there was no private.

There is an argument that if the "elite" however you define that, had to use state schools, they would be better.
Thing is, that they already do.
Most councillors aren't in a position to pay for education. Very few civil servants also, and much of the media.
Thus nearly everyone involved in decision making can't opt out.
But...
As we saw with Tony Blair's kids as well as Camerons, strings can be pulled so that the top layer don't have to contend with the worst state schools.
Although there would be some emotional benefit to we critics of the state system if the elite had kids at sink comprehensives, I don't see it helping.

What would motivate Brown, Cameron et al ?
Getting elected of course.
If British people were as loud about education as they are about Iraq, if there were crippling strikes over failing local schools rather than for overpaid tribe drivers, then there would be action.
If luvvies in the media covered education as thoroughly as they covered soccer, then there would be strong feedback, both positive and negative.
It is widely thought that a large part of the reason Labour lost so many local council seats was Iraq.
Councils don't control the army, yet the gross mismanagement of education at a local level simply wasn't an issue. Being crap at a national level won't be a factor at the general election.
Some respectable analysts reckon weekly rubbish collections are big issue in local politics now.
They don't say education.

The problem dear reader is you, and yes me as well. Whilst people blame their local councillor for the Blair alliance with Bush, and are louder about binds than schools, this is what you will get.

I am in agreement with you DC and I wish more people were vocal about education but instead of being vocal people like myself are leaving the state sector.

Having worked in a state sector school with problems that has been on special measures I can tell you that if my dd went to my school she would get a good education as I would ensure it. I would hound, out and make public any teacher or department that failed my child, tough but as a public sector worker who pays her taxes I have no time for people who waste tax payers money and who deprive children of the education they deserve through their own lack of ability or diligence. I could do this as I have the contacts, the knowledge and the confidence. Sadly at the school I teach at I could count on three fingers the parents who do this and as a result the education is poorer.

In my own school we are having to make teachers and support assistants redundant because of failings by our governers and leadershop team, this will happen because not enough parents will make a fuss, there should be people taking to the streets about the failings of state education in my local area but nobody can be bothered.

In contrast in a previous school I taught at things were changed because a group of parents with contacts on the Daily Telegraph (whihc apparantly is the paper read by Roman Catholics with power) made it clear that if things did not chnage and improve they would go stright to the paper and tell all.

But there will always be a limit as to what even the keenest parents can achieve in any school. Yes you may lobby the governors and get a change in the head, but do we have enough good heads, and if their hands are tied in restricting difficult pupils then will they really achieve the best school.

In terms of mandatory state schooling - I still don't think it would achieve what some imagine. The idea that parents would try to improve the school for the benefit of all is unfortunately idealistic - there will be parents who perceive that education does give the child an advantage and who will seek to exploit a competitive advantage for their child - probably by private or home tuition.

I can see that you would be foregoing any political ambitions - you're obviously not the first Labour mother to face this dilemma! I guess that you have to weigh up whether the fact that your dd's presence in a state school might have a positive impact on some of the other students.

FWIW I think that actually having teachers who chose private schools actually helps to emphasise the importance that they place on education. I went to a Catholic state school - the type that was set up specifically to deal with immigrants in the late 60s/early 70s (and needless to say will never have the problem of being oversubscribed). My parents had both left school in their early teens and assumed that I would too, yet some of my teachers ensured that I was prepared for and sat 11+/junior entrance exams. Later on teachers again were instrumental in assisting me to go to university even when my parents refused to support the decision. I have to say that it made no difference to me or my parents as to whether their children went to private or state schools - in fact that decision seemed to be mainly driven by the earning power of their partners as far as I can see. So I think that your role as a teacher will be immensely more beneficial to state education than which school your dd goes to. But good luck in your choice.

But how do you prove that the teacher has failed your child. You can obviously do this because you have the skills and the knowledge of what should happen in school. As a parent I can google what the goals are and know that I want my children to do xyz however if there is a different policy at school how can I enforce this? Additionally if the class is full of children who are bent on disrupting the class and the teacher can't cope how am I going to help this situation and improve it. My understanding is that teachers very very rarely get sacked even if they are rubbish.

One thing I am surprised at is the number of parents who allow their children to be put through SATs. I havent had to deal with this yet but it is one of the reasons I want out of state education.

Quattrocento

1. The schools are fee-paying and the state should pay for decent eduction (Yes, but)

The realist in me agrees with the yes but, however the idealist in me says that standards will never imrove while people continue to leave the state sector in droves.

(2) By sending my children to private school I will be unfairly advantaging them because of my wealth (WTF - so it would be okay to lash out an extra £150k on a house thereby moving into the catchment area of a just-about-acceptable school but not to use that same £150k to pay school fees?)

I agree and have said that I already feel guilty about living in a more affluent area of my town.
In this town schools do not have catchment areas however, instead the more affluent or educated families use the two acceptably good state schools, al the catholics and the kids from the council estate go to the catholic schools and the poorestand most deprived come to the school I teach in.

uhhhm, the guilt thing. Only pearls knows her own guilty feelings.

But I would say guilt might arise from strong 'socialist' feelings of having a respnsibility to do what is best for society. That if we want a good, fair, productive society we have to consider everyone and not just ourselves. And you'd have to have a belief (that mountain mentioned) that schools would be better if everyone went to their local school, no child was left in a school deserted by htose with more money.

You would have to hold those views (and of course many people do not) to have the feeling of guilt.

If you work with the children who have no one able to fight for them and who have been deserted by many but you believe these children are in fact being given the chance of a very good education, you negate that belief if you then turn round and say 'oh it's not good enough for MY kid.'

Are you bored yet, quatt?

A bit about 'guilty about living in a more affluent area.' Yeah, right. Move to a chavvier postcode, then. Thought not.

Sorry, I'm in a foul temper tonight. Nobody please take it personally.

People always believe in their principles until it suits them not to

Having said that, if I had the money to send my kids to private school there would be no debate. None. But then I have never said I don't believe in them. People are far too worried about what others think. Do what is right and what you are able. Ignore everyone else, its not your responsiblity to make sure everyone else gets a good education. You pay your taxes and it's up to the authorities how they organise education in their area

"These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." Groucho Marx

Actually, I think it is up to us.

sorry the cat jumped on the keybaord and managed to press post

(3) By sending my children to private school I will be depriving the state sector of my child's superior potential as a Bona Fide Middle-Class Child (that's just arrogance isn't it?)

Firstly I don;t know if I claimed to be middle class, I see myself as very working class with a few airy fairy pretensions. It is arrogance I suppose but we do need a mixture of kids in schools. I taught a class on Friday the majority of which were on the child proection register, a substantial minority had been in care, none of the parents are in employment and they all have literacy levels not much above my five year old daughter. I just want to see state school classrooms become a reflection of the communities the serve not a ghetto frequented by an underclass.

(4) By sending my children to private school I will be depriving the state sector of the benefit of Particularly Laudable Parental Involvement (since my stated objective is to have as little to do with school as possible due to unfeasibly long hours at work, I am not depriving the state sector of anything)

I do work long hours but I ensure I am invlolved in my daughter's schooling, whether it be on the PTA, going to assemblies, digging in the school garden or taking time as I did recently to feedback my concerns about my dd present school to OFSTED. I was a governer but stood down to be a governer at another school that I knew was having problems getting govereners.

(5) By sending my children to private school I will incur the wrath of a sinister body of people called Guardianistas (Don't want to offend anyone but (a) I don't know any (b) I can't imagine they have a military wing and (c) surely it's none of their business?)

I am not bothered about the wrath of guardianistas but I am bothered about the fact that I have built a good relationship with the families I work with in both of my jobs and part of this has been helped by the fact that I am a local girl who ahs been through tough times and comes from the one the most deprived parts of our town, this has earnt me respect and if I were to move dd to a private school I have sold those families a lie.

Yes exactly QD and most of these left wing hand wringing guardian reading liberals all have two sets of rules, one for everyone else including their own (until push comes to shove then everyone else can shove off while they do what they like) MP's particularly guilty of this

UnquietDAD firstly I hate the phrase Chav but that is for another thread.

Firstly it would be hard to find a "chavvier" postcode than I do have, the only way I could do thatis to move to one of our council estates, which would be daft as that would be depriving someone else of a home they need just so I can prove a point.

meandmine, it is NOT up to us why should it be

I know if a teacher has failed my child if there book is never marked, if children are not set differentiated work, if the teacher is always off work, if the teacher can't be bothered to discipline the kids or if they don't plan lessons.

In the end tsap you will send them you won't be able to resist it and why should you, I am just saying that a lot of people believe in x y or z until it comes to their own position then they move heaven and earth to justify why they should do what they have been saying they wouldn;t all along

thanks pointydog that is my point , I knew someone would understand