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Education

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will someone scold and spank me and remined me I am a stubborn socialist guardianista?

470 replies

twinsetandpearls · 28/06/2007 23:23

I have always made my feelings clear about private schools but the family has been working on me again and have ordered a proespectus for a private school that I have been idly flicking through and I have fallen in love with it and even - and this is a big deal for me - looked at the website.

For me this is a huge step and I am feeling sick with guilt, so guilty in fact that I have just re planned all my lessons tomorrow for my classes as some kind of penenance.

I need other socialist guardianistas to take me in hand.

OP posts:
Quattrocento · 01/07/2007 16:18

?

StarryStarryNight · 01/07/2007 16:25

Sorry quattorcento, I sort of see your point, and it is amazing how sometimes a discussion just seem to derail...

Judy1234 · 01/07/2007 16:35

I hope my children know all people demand equal respect from the dustman to the Queen. I hope they also have the sense to know some chidlren are dreadful to be around adn unkind and others nice, some stupid, some clever, some poor, some rich - that there are differences. Going to a private school doesn't make you think you're better. It might make you realise your parents have more money as might the fact at a state school your parents have a nice car and it might make you think you're cevere if 5 girls compete for every place and the schools gets the besst A levels in England and that would be a truth, not a lie but just like the competitive sports days about to come up children know without being told who is better than someone else at almost anything. Nothing wrong with that as long they're also taught how to treat other people with respect and tolerance (which I'm sure Stonyhurst despite not having a particularly good positon in academic league tables is probably particularly good at doing).

Judy1234 · 01/07/2007 16:37

I still dn't get this point - everything you do for your children is to bring the best out in them from breastfeeding to talking to them, being kind, understanding, helping them, teaching them to ride a bike, eat a good diet, play the piano or whatever it might be so why is education different -why foist the worst on the child if you can affoird the best. It's like saying many children have to eat hamburgers every day and suffer for it therefore to make this some UK socialist utopia it's hamburgers every day for my little Jane so she has as bad or even as average as the others.

DominiConnor · 01/07/2007 16:52

One thing missing from the debate over state vs private: There are a lot more boys than girls in private schools.

Dinosaur · 01/07/2007 17:00

I care very much about my own children's education, obviously. I also care about the education of everyone else's children, too. And I can't get myself comfortable that taking large numbers of the lucky children - those with caring, supportive parents who really value education - out of the state system, is helpful to the education of children generally.

StarryStarryNight · 01/07/2007 17:10

DC - maybe that is for the very reason some of my friends are putting their boys through private school? Their opinion is that it is not so much for the educational value but who they get to hang out with. In their opinion future hotshot lawyers, politicians or other highflyers go to private schools, and so they want their kids to hang out with, and become like this too. It is important for their future network ofinfluential people. Not saying I am of this opinon.

policywonk · 01/07/2007 17:28

Xenia, as I said about a million years ago, if you're a socialist you do actually believe that state schooling is the best thing for your child, because we believe that it benefits society as a whole, and we believe that an equitable society would benefit everyone immeasurably. I know you don't agree with this, but in itself it's not particularly hard to comprehend.

Judy1234 · 01/07/2007 18:00

I don't see why it benefits society as a whole unless all state schools are identical and they never will be.

On boys and girls some of that is also sexism - girls will marry and become good little housewives like so many mumsnetters who with enthusiasm take up that role of service and support but boys need to earn money hence the tradition of educating boys in the UK but not girls.

Judy1234 · 01/07/2007 18:06

Interesting US court decision (yesterday's FT)

"Court rules out schools' racial balancing
By Patti Waldmeir in Washington

Published: June 29 2007 03:00 | Last updated: June 29 2007 03:00

A sharply divided US Supreme Court yesterday ruled that race alone could not be used to determine where children go to school, a ruling that could affect millions of American pupils.

In one of its most important decisions on race in years, the court ruled unconstitutional the practice of "racial balancing", a tool used by thousands of US school districts to seek integration of the country's still largely segregated schools.

Ruling 5-4 on the last day of its term, the court's conservative majority - led by the new conservative chief justice, John Roberts, appointed by President George W. Bush - struck down voluntary integration programmes, which had been challenged primarily by white parents who complained their children were harmed by them. The programmes used race as an important factor in selecting students for popular schools.

The ruling marks a significant shift for the Supreme Court, which only three years ago said universities could consider race in making admissions decisions.

Writing for the conservative wing of the court, Chief Justice Roberts said choosing students by race violated the constitution's equal protection clause, which outlaws most racial discrimination by government.

He drew explicit parallels with race-based schooling that existed before the historic Brown v Board of Education Supreme Court ruling, which struck down school segregation more than 50 years ago.

"Before Brown, schoolchildren were told where they could and could not go to school based on the colour of their skin," he wrote. "The school districts in these cases have not carried the heavy burden of demonstrating that we should allow this once again - even for very different reasons."

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," he wrote.

However the fifth member of the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy, wrote separately to limit the scope of the decision. He said districts could try to foster integration, but should find subtler methods such as strategic site selection for new schools and attendance zones that take into account neighbourhood demographics.

Liberals in the court attacked the conservatives for betraying the Brown ruling. In a dissent read from the bench, Justice Stephen Breyer said: "The last half-century has witnessed great strides toward racial equality, but we have not yet realised the promise of Brown. This is a decision that the court and the nation will come to regret."

The Alliance for Justice, a liberal group that opposed the nomination of Chief Justice Roberts and his fellow Bush appointee, Justice Samuel Alito, said the new justices had violated assurances given at their confirmation hearings.

They had "taken the first opportunity they had to undercut the reasoning of that landmark case", it said, adding: "By barring public school districts from assigning students on the basis of race, the court has undone years of precedent and disregarded settled federal law.""

Quattrocento · 01/07/2007 18:10

policy - old thing - but does a high-flown concept like that have any relevance nowadays. I mean that was an argument when Albania was being held up to be a model communist country. The system is riddled with people trying to get away from poor schools. The would-be-escapees either move to affluent areas, or they go to faith schools or they pay. To ignore this is positively Canute-like ...

policywonk · 01/07/2007 18:13

It's what I believe in. Because no one has yet had the sense to make me the ruler of the world, all I can do is live by my principles.

DominiConnor · 01/07/2007 18:26

A perfect summary of why socialism as a respectable model of society died decades ago.
Socialists "believe" things in the same way religious people do. Proof or evidence is irrelevant, and upon occasion actually offensive

It's an absurdity to say that state schools are inherently better for society than private, and vice versa. One should look at the facts, and think about them. Sadly the vicious circle that swallowed socialism meant that "analysis" is now a more offensive term that "nigger". Indeed socialists often accept the N word when used by black people, but positively froth at the A word regardless of user.

Back when socialism wasn't the doctrine of the dumb, the amazingly smart people like Keynes who saw it's merit, would have mocked an undergrad economist who said something a non sequitur like that because you were a socialist, you believed in state education.

A critical aspect of Marxism was objectivity, and someone who thought about society, rather than applied prejudices would first ask about the consequences of a particular position.

It's possible, (and quite easy) to form a reasoned view that private schools are bad for society, even if good for some individuals.
But modern socialism is not a form of thought, it is a set of prejudices. As in "because I'm a socialist, I'm against nuclear power, genetic modification and the manufacture of cheese".

Judy1234 · 01/07/2007 18:30

But if you live by your principle.... or rather make your children live by your principles which aren't theirs, then that's morally wrong if it damages the child and is of no benefit to society anyway.

Quattrocento · 01/07/2007 18:34

DC I don't agree with one word of your argument despite reaching the same conclusion.

Policy - you are sounding like a gal adrift on an unfriendly sea, clinging the wreckage of socialism ...

Is it possible to be a socialist in England now?

Dinosaur · 01/07/2007 18:49

I don't agree that not sending your children to a private school automatically equates to damaging them.

Bloody good job as well, given that only a very small minority of parents are ever going to be able to afford to pay £24,000 pa per child out of taxed income (saw this figure mentioned in an article about a well-known public school recently, presume it's fairly typical).

Blandmum · 01/07/2007 18:51

Mine go to private school and we don't pay half that Dinosaur. Our fees are more like £6000 a year. Not peanuts, and we are lucky to be able to afford it.

Quattrocento · 01/07/2007 18:53

I agree with you Dinosaur. It doesn't equate to damaging them. It just means they have to do a lot more for themselves. Which probably should be viewed as characterbuilding.

Fees no. The range for day schools is wide and of course depends on the school and also depends on the age of the child. But I recall some data showing that at primary level around £10k pa per child out of taxed income is average.

Ladymuck · 01/07/2007 18:56

£24,000 is pretty much at the top end of the scale Dinosaur - definitely not typical. Local secondary independent (in S London) has fees of £12.5k per year but just over 50% of pupils have either a bursary or a scholarship so pay less. Only rich thick kids pay the full fees.

puddle · 01/07/2007 19:15

One question that I always have re: state vs private schools. If your child goes to private school is state education something that really concerns you? And if it does concern you, does it concern you enough to do something about it?

Quattrocento · 01/07/2007 19:19

Does it concern me? Yes. Enough to do something about it? Well theoretically yes but having trouble coping with work/home as it is - more commitments would be very difficult.

Oh go on then. What am I supposed to do in order to make a positive contribution?

puddle · 01/07/2007 19:22

Soprry Q v brief - in middle of bedtime.

Volunteer at a school, be a Governor, mentor pupils, lobby your mp, vote...

back later - stories are calling

Blandmum · 01/07/2007 20:02

Mine go to private school and I work in a state school. I feel no guilt. I do my whack for the education of the next generation

Ladymuck · 01/07/2007 20:07

Puddle, yes, which is why I hear children read at a local state school. Do I want to lobby national policy - in a sense I do that through the voting system, but in general I don't think that there should be as much state interference anyway). It doesn't actually seem to be that easy to become a school governor if you do not have children at that school unless you have a particular skill that the school are after, though as with everything presumably that is different across the country.

Of course all of these activities do assume that you have a fair bit of time (over and above any time given to your own chldren and their education).

You might also be astonished at the number of teachers in the state system whose children are at private schools.

hatwoman · 01/07/2007 20:14

tsap - I have a secret fear of private school prospectuses - so I have much sympathy. fwiw the thing that keeps me on the guardianista straight and narrow is faith in my children and in myself and dh. yes fantastic sporting facilities would be nice; yes a science lab in a primary school sounds brilliant, yes smaller class sizes is very probably a good idea, but ultimately I don;t actually think these things will make dds happier or more succesful. and I do, like you i presume, think these things come at a price for our society. having a dh who gets genuinely excited by maths and history and astronomy, and spends time talking to them; having dds who are bright and chirpy and interested in the world; having parents with an open mind about what constitutes "happiness" or "success"; having educated parents who read the papers and engage in the world....dds will be fine. and will positively benefit from a healthy dose of principles and caring about wider society. I;m sure the same is true of yours.