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Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

852 replies

Foxy333 · 30/05/2018 15:31

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

OP posts:
MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 20:56

By finding ways to have almost no sen or disadvantaged pupils

Such as?

So I dont believe a comprehensive system exists in England.

So comps. aren't failing, secondary moderns are?

Missingthesea · 31/05/2018 21:08

That certainly is interesting, Noshitandnofuckingredemption (Did you see my post where I commented that Erith used to have a grammar stream in the past?)

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 21:11

Such as? Expensive school uniforms, zero tolerance and the money to have high permanent exclusions/managed moves, pressured 'monthly' donations... I think you know all the tricks schools can play.

So comps. aren't failing, secondary moderns are? I dont know, are they? I am pointing out that despite the word comprehensive, England does not have a comprehensive system. Grammars are a side show and probably the least worse option.

moreshitandnofuckingredemption · 31/05/2018 21:12

I did missing, it was that which prompted me to post. Everything's circular!

cantkeepawayforever · 31/05/2018 21:12

Walking,

So a school is, say, 8 form entry - 240 pupils a year.

It has, say, a roughly circular priority admissions area, co-ordinated with other local comprehensives.

It has, say, a completely standard set of admission criteria:

  • SEN with a statement
  • LAC or ex LAC
  • Siblings in catchment
  • Siblings out of catchment
  • Others in catchment
  • Others out of catchment

It fills its places exactly according to its admissions criteria, with no regard to income, faith or ability, and both the school and the LA as admissions authority are rigorous in addressing admissions fraud.

However, its places are filled by those genuinely living relatively close to the school, and so its effective admissions area is small.

Can you explain
a) why such a school is not comprehensive?
b) how it can be said to be selective?
c) what else it should do to adjust its intake?

IF the school has an unusually-shaped admissions area which obviously omits areas of relative deprivation, campaign to get that changed - I and others successfully campaigned when a local school tried to introduce an unusual wiggle in its new catchment boundary, which tried to skirt an area of high deprivation, and the Schools Adjudicator will be interested. However, if the school has a circular catchment that happens to be reasonably affluent, then that is simply the nature of the area.

Would you suggest giving priority to PP children? I have wondered whether every school - selective and non-selective - should always admit the average level of PP children from the wider area, though of course that creates transport problems.

Do you think it is acceptable that the vast majority of grammars have such low levels of SEN and disadvantaged pupils that even the leafiest of leafy comps look full of such pupils by comparison? the comparison is even starker when you look at grammars vs secondary moderns serving the same towns.

moreshitandnofuckingredemption · 31/05/2018 21:13

Or cyclical even! (I didn't go to grammar school Grin)

cantkeepawayforever · 31/05/2018 21:15

Sorry, X-post. Does the school genuinely have no second hand or reduced price or free uniforms available? Genuinely specifically target disadvantaged or SEN pupils for exclusion? genuinely DEMAND monthly payments?

I know grammar schools which do all three of these ... but no comprehensives, even though (again IME) local 'chatter' suggests this to be the case.

moreshitandnofuckingredemption · 31/05/2018 21:18

Ha ha I'm getting loads of private school ads popping up now

cantkeepawayforever · 31/05/2018 21:19

Grammars are a side show and probably the least worse option.

Given the nature of your concerns about comprehensives, I cannot understand why you see grammars - far more more selective AGAINST SEN children and those from deprived families than even the leafiest comprehensives - as 'least worst'?

ADescentofWoodpeckers · 31/05/2018 21:58

Walkingdead
Our 'pretend comprehensive' does all you've listed and more. By Y8/9 the challenging children have been managed out to a nearby undersubscribed school and failing that parents are persuaded to home educate to avoid a permanent exclusion. It is an oversubscribed school so there's always someone on the waiting list to take the place of those who left.

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 22:07

ADescentofWoodpeckers - Our 'pretend comprehensive' does all you've listed and more

So do only "pretend comps." use these selection methods?

ADescentofWoodpeckers · 31/05/2018 22:20

Mum
I wouldn't know, I only know the schools in my area and I'm hardly an admissions expert. We are not in a grammar area so I know even less about those.
Just thought of another thing; next door neighbour has been trying to get her Y7, mildly SEN DS transferred to this school, no luck but a high achieving girl also Y7 living a street away got in a few months ago. They are an academy and deal with their own in year transfers.
Maybe I watch too many conspiracy theory programmes Grin

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 22:32

cantkeepaway I think you are living in either denial or ignorance. Have you no idea how the school system is abused works?

You skirted over 2 very important issues:

  1. its places are filled by those genuinely living relatively close to the school Define 'genuinely'? Because a 700m radius for the secondary is a cauldron of parents buying a house for 1 a few years just to get their child in. Nothing genuine about it.

  2. IF the school has an unusually-shaped admissions area which obviously omits areas of relative deprivation LOL are you really so naive, politicians specifically set up schools in areas they are not needed just so exactly this sort of 'selection' can happen. You are deluded if you think a Schools Adjudicator has anything to do with it.

ADescentofWoodpeckers · 31/05/2018 22:40

What I'm trying to say is that this school cannot select at entry point but seems to do so later.

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 22:47

Walkingdeadfangirl How many £500,000 houses could you realistically fit in a 700m catchment area?

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 22:52

Walkingdeadfangirl Do you think there are far more DCs with SEN and PP in Grammar schools than “pretend comps.”?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 22:54

School a) says you are not clever enough to come to our school.
School b) says your family does not earn enough to come to our school.
School c) says your family does not believe in the right god to come to our school.
School d) says you do not live in the right area to come to our school.
School e) says your house is not expensive enough to come to our school.
School f) says you have not inherited enough money to come to our school.
School g) says you do not have enough privilege to come to our school.

Which schools admissions policy is 'genuine' and which school doesn't select?

roundaboutthetown · 31/05/2018 23:03

Walkingdeadfangirl - I'm not seeing how a grammar school which adds a) to b,d,e,f and g is improving the situation? Because if you look at the actual grammar school intakes, that's what they seem to be doing, and more successfully than your pretend comprehensives.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 23:09

How many £500,000 houses could you realistically fit in a 700m catchment area?

That is an area of one and a half million square meters, so several thousand homes, times a few stories if you have flats. I guess ignorance is bliss.

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 23:13

Which schools admissions policy is 'genuine' and which school doesn't select?

The following are genuine admissions policy for a Grammar School:

says you are not clever enough to come to our school.
says your family does not believe in the right god to come to our school.
says you do not live in the right area to come to our school.
says you do not have enough privilege to come to our school.

I can't comment on the rest as I don't think that information is asked for on the CAF form.

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 23:15

I guess ignorance is bliss.

Not really, which is why I'd be interested in you naming such an area where every single house and flat in a 700m catchment is £500,000 plus.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 23:17

I don't think that information is asked for on the CAF form

And that is why grammar schools are the fairest and most honest.

roundaboutthetown · 31/05/2018 23:20

Super selective grammar schools have an even posher intake and higher proportion of private primary school educated kids than "normal" grammars - you aren't going to catch a LA paying to bus a PP kid 50 miles to the nearest super selective, but you will find one or two well heeled parents transporting their children that far...

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 23:23

And that is why grammar schools are the fairest and most honest.

Really, so you think it is fair if a school:

says you are not clever enough to come to our school.
says your family does not believe in the right god to come to our school.
says you do not live in the right area to come to our school.
says you do not have enough privilege to come to our school.

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 23:24

Walkingdeadfangirl can you name a single state school that says you have not inherited enough money to come to our school.