Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

Very interesting programme. I wouldn’t have chosen to be live on tv telling my dc the results of their 11+, though, whether they failed or passed...

And I thought the programme showed one of the most important factors is having a parent/parents who are interested in their dc’s academic progress and know how to help them - not necessarily by having them tutored, but by buying past papers and going over them with them, teaching them how to do the non verbal reasoning questions, etc.

Children are not bussed into the Kent grammars either - except perhaps in some cases to the super selectives.

The ‘ordinary” grammars have catchments.

Out of interest, what happens to those children who perform massively differently in different parts of the test? Both my DSs did CATs tests. DS1 has a ridiculously high quantitative score (about top 2%), well above average verbal score but a Non Verbal Score that is borderline defective(or whatever charming term they used : it below 80). DS2 has a similar, if not so extreme profile.

It has brought with it its own issues for them : but at least we are not in a grammar area, so not that trauma.

How many of the comprehensive schools in the country fit your definition of "pretend comprehensive"? No idea but have no reason to think my area of the country is unique.

So how do these "pretend comps." exist if "all comps have had children selected away to other schools." Because selection seems to be first to pretend comprehensives, then private, then faith, then move out of area in desperation. The 'comprehensive' secondary moderns are last on the selection scale.

Who on earth lives in the same place for generations? Literally none of my dc had any friends in their classes whose families had lived there for generations. People move away for uni or for work, hardly anybody keeps the same job for more than a few years and even if you wanted to live where you grew up very few families can afford to buy houses where their parents are based.

Hence within the comprehensive system many families end up buying into areas and houseprice/ results are key.

Most of Bedfordshire stays put. Increasingly so with silly house prices, to be honest. DCs who go away to university usually return. There are increasingly fewer outsiders.

elephantscanring - For which schools in Bucks?

In 2018 there were 13 allocations to DCs in the Greater London area - 5 were for Burnham Grammar.

In 2017 there were 75 allocations to DCs in the Greater London area - 37 were for BHS & 19 for WHS.

In 2016 there were 73 allocations to DCs in the Greater London area.

In 2015 there were 91 allocations to DCs in the Greater London area.

Wasn't there a study published a few months ago that suggested that academic success was down to genetics and parental involvement? So whether you go to grammar, comp or sec mod is irrelevant. Your performance is pre destined by fate!

Depends where you are CowParsley - round here I'd say it's more the norm than otherwise for parents and grandparents to have attended the same school as their dc. (DD's RS teacher in KS3 used to threaten to talk to her classmates grandparents in church if they misbehaved - dd used to say she was very grateful she had an atheist grandma )

We live in a grammar school area (which pushes up house prices) and when my dds took the 11+, the tests consisted only of verbal reasoning, as I think they called it.

Much more recently I've heard that it now includes a traditional English paper, since they were finding that too many children who'd scored very highly in VR could barely write a coherent sentence and needed a lot of remedial English when they started at the GS.

Because selection seems to be first to pretend comprehensives, then private, then faith, then move out of area

So how does the 'pretend comprehensive' select its intake, if you say it is the first level of selection?

It remains a comprehensive if it has no barrier to applicants from its effective admissions area.

It may have a different pupil profile from another school, equally comprehensive, but sited in a different area. However, that does not make either of them either selective, because they neither select for or against pupils who live within their effective catchment areas.

CowParsley2 a large number of my school friends are still living the area they were born and grew up. Most went to Uni and returned to the area to work and raise families.

Even in the area I live now, a lot of my friends have parents and other family members living close by.

having been a 'blow in' to a variety of areas across counties, from a tiny rural village to a large more deprived village, to a variety of medium-sized towns, I would say that away from major urban centres it is more common to live in the same place as your parents did than not.

“Because selection seems to be first to pretend comprehensives”
How do “pretend comprehensives select?

Because selection seems to be first to pretend comprehensives

But you haven't explained how they become "pretend comps." if "all comps have had children selected away to other schools."

Were they intially set up as "pretend comps." or were they comps. that became "pretend comps." over time - in which case how did that happend if the children were being selected away?

I have to say, I only seem to hear about these “pretend comprehensives” when people are defending grammar schools “Grammar schools are better than selection by post code” or when anyone says that they are happy with their child’s comprehensive school. “Oh, it must be a leafy comp”

www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/uk-parents-move-house-school-catchment-area-quarter-best-education-a7908046.html

There you go.

Have to say denying it happens just because you're sitting pretty is a bit silly. It's widely known that this does happen.

Have to say denying it happens just because you're sitting pretty is a bit silly.

I'm fully aware it happens. From what I can tell its been happening for years.

I was offered cash for my first property as the family looking to buy had to move quickly after getting their 11 plus results in order to qualify for a school place.

There are plenty of forum posts from parents doing exactly this:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54369

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54473

Many grammars don't have catchments so this wouldn't happen. As there are so few grammars to start with the problem is clearer far far greater in the comprehensive sector.

the problem is clearer far far greater in the comprehensive sector.

Apparently not as "all comps have had children selected away to other schools."

I suspect you mean "pretend comps." in which case how many do you think there are?

Few points here:

• Bexley is not a ss county
• not everyone tutors from y3
• "catchment" for Townley is less of an issue than for other grammars, if you pass the exam (sorry "are deemed selective") and apply from within about 8-9 miles, you're pretty much guaranteed to get in
• I don't recall them mentioning this in the doc but Erith is actually in a MAT with Townley, and they are introducing a grammar stream from September (as well as changing their name). Which is interesting

Many grammars don't have catchments so this wouldn't happen

If you say so:

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=54457&hilit=moving

How do “pretend comprehensives select?
By creating a priority admissions area that avoids areas of disadvantage. By only admitting children within eg 700 m of that area, in which it 'just happens' to cost well over £500,000+ to buy a house. By finding ways to have almost no sen or disadvantaged pupils. Its not a secret its well known in the area as a cheap way to get a private school education.

You might call that comprehensive for the elite 700m radius. For me comprehensive means including all types of abilities/needs. The result is that the next closest 'comprehensive' school is just like a secondary modern. So I dont believe a comprehensive system exists in England.

I've not read all the comments but watched the prog with interest. I have a dilemma in that I live in N wales which has no grammar schools. As a consequence the local schools are a mix of everything and aren't too bad at all.

However we live 40 mins from the Wirral which has 4 grammar schools. 2 of them nearer the border have places for children from N wales and Chester and put on buses for these families.
My DC would probably pass the 11+ no problem but I'm torn as to whether to give them a long school day (bus leaves at 7.40am) to schools which have amazing opportunities or to keep them local and with their primary school friends. To complicate things I went private from 5-18 so have zero experience of the state or grammar sectors. Argghh. It's a dilemma.