Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

Revolting system. Writing children off as failures at 11 is obscene.

We have selective education in NI.
It is not fun.

“Also I don't think the exam always necessarily disadvantages such children either.The schools aren't interested in handwriting”

As I said, the exam is different in different areas and schools. And grammar schools overall have a very low %age of children with additional needs.

CowParsley2 perhaps you care to name a Grammar School, any Grammar School, with a high SEN intake?

The programme actually showed that the one who hadn't been tutored but had just done some workbooks passed and the other 3 who had been tutored were not "deemed selective " (sic).

It also stated that the type of tests used cannot be tutored for.

Finally one of the reason grammar schools work is because the kids that do get in tend to want to work and are aspirational and therefore do not require the discipline to settle down to get on with their work.

Yes those that are at the top end of the non selective secondary moderns may alsk succeed but only if they put in the work themselves and they are to some extent at a disadvantage when teachers have to.spend their time.on crowd control rather tha teaching. I believe there should be more effective streaming i the secondary moderns to sort this out.

My son is at a superselective and there is a high proportio of kids with dyslexia/dispraxia/discalcua.

The headteacher really irritated me. Yes his school may be more inclusive than other grammars but they still have a far lower percentage of students on free school meals and with SEN statements than on average and he seems oblivious to the barriers that students face that no amount of “outreach” can overcome. Yes Summer wasn’t tutored and both her and Joanita seemed lovely, bright girls but you’ve got to wonder whether she would have passed if she shared a room with a two month old baby and had to do her exam practice surrounded by the tv, siblings etc etc. The tutoring Juanita received (IMO) surely can’t have ameliorated that disadvantage she was already at. I know it was just a snapshot of their lives but it didn’t “debunk” the tutoring theory so much as prove that families with educated parents, a quiet space to work and surrounded by books are at an astronomical advantage.

Excuse all.my typos -stubby fingers on phone! (Ex grammar school girl).

children with SEN at grammar schools one school that I know quite well on the list has 8% SEN- one of the highest. It is a very maths/science/music oriented boy's school and has an autism unit, which may explain the slightly higher numbers. Still incredibly low, though......

So I guess my musing is how can that be overcome? Not that this is relevant to those featured in the programme but in general how is a kid who regularly doesn’t get breakfast before school go up against one that does? How can a child who spends their evening caring for a family member compete against a child who has free time to read and do practice papers? Tutoring aside, the whole system is just stacked against those who don’t come from a home in which education can thrive.

"My son is at a superselective and there is a high proportio of kids with dyslexia/dispraxia/discalcua."

Are you absolutely sure about that? What do you mean by high?

In a cohort of 180 approxinately 25% qualify for extra time in their exams. I invigilate there and this has been roughly the same proportio for the past 4 years for both gcses and A levels.

Qualifying for extra time does not necessarily mean SEN. Several of my ds's friends qualify because of mental health issues like depression and anxiety.

I didn't watch the programme because I really dislike the grammar system. Whilst they may have spun it in the programme to make it look like you don't need tutoring to get in, the reality is you do, with very few exceptions. Or you go to one of the many private preps, all of whose pupils go to grammars. I live in the borough so speak from first hand experience.

I know at least one primary (poorer area, where parents are unlikely to have been able to afford tutoring) where no child in the last 10-15 years has ever passed the selection test. Not one. But the rhetoric still keeps coming as to how it's 'fair' for the clever kids.

Firstly it's not a fair system anyway. And secondly, what's fair about all those who don't pass ending up with (at best) a second class education?

And I know I say this on every thread but it's important. In our small town we have a grammar school and a high school within a mile of each other. They cover the same very mixed catchment. The grammar regularly admits 0-1% Pupil Premium children- the high school around 35-37%. Enough said, really, don't you think?

I might dispute the work ethic of grammar school students. There are some middle ability grammar students who are really driven and do well. There are some high ability who do the minimum to stay out of trouble and also do well. Then there are those high ability students who are bored so act the class clown. And there are also some at more affluent grammars that are so used to haveing everything done for them that they just don't try.

Unfortunately there is still a lot of crowd control needed in a grammar, but less funding for support staff so it is harder to manage. It's constant low-level disruption in a grammar as opposed to individual outbursts in a comprehensive. Most comprehensives have a better policy on

I dont disagree with grammar schools in principal - children learn in different ways and some need the more formal methods and faster teaching that you often find in grammars - I dont however agree with the system of getting a place at one.

I am in an area where you have super-selective (I think you need to be within the few percent of pass marks for these), selective - then all the comprehensive types - Church based, single sex, co-ed and one that offers very vocational route. And of course the "normal" comprehensives are considered to be the bottom of the heap - from my experience of the bottom of the heap its not all doom and gloom- and grammar school students are certainly not all quiet hard working angels either.

The big issue in are area is the tutoring and the fact that so many places go to children from the preps who specifically advertise that they teach to pass the test. Its in the papers every year about how privately educated children are taking the places from state children and is this fair.

I dont really know the solution. What channel was this on I would like to find it on catch up.

Posted too soon!
...Behaviour too.

I've been support staff in a grammar and a comp in the last 5 years. It's swings and roundabouts

Bertrand our Pupil premium percentage is much higher than that, and more similar to the local high schools too.

ReservoirDogs Wed 30-May-18 19:31:26 - In a cohort of 180 approxinately 25% qualify for extra time in their exams.

How many of those DCs qualified for extra time when they sat the 11 plus?

'In a cohort of 180 approximately 25% qualify for extra time in their exams'

That doesn't mean that those children all have SEN.
For example, independent schools have significantly higher amounts of students allocated extra time when compared to state schools, although they have a much lower percentage of students with SEN.

lalalalee How is that? Is it just that the private schools are much better at arguing for extra time for their pupils?

The grammar regularly admits 0-1% Pupil Premium children- the high school around 35-37%. Enough said, really, don't you think?

I 100% agree with you on the Pupil Premium statistics-it is why Grammar Schools are hugely struggling for funding under the new budget system and I completely agree with you that it is very poor but quite often, because those pupils don’t sit the test (for many reasons) to start with and as a result, Grammars have become a ‘middle class-avoid the fees-tutor to get in’ route and not for the social mobility it was designed for (FSM is very low in Grammar Schools too)
However, there are many SEND children who don’t have Pupil Premium or on FSM and there is a higher proportion than you think because it is usually PP or FSM that gets used in the relevant stats.
Forgive me if I don’t name my school for ‘outing’ reasons, so you will have to just take my word for it, I’m afraid and we obviously we aren’t ‘swimming’ in pupils with SEND but I have a good proportion in every class to differentiate for and support and I merely wanted to point out that having Dyslexia does not equal ‘thick’ and I don’t like that assumption some people often have (not saying anyone on here has)

that the private schools are much better at arguing for extra time for their pupils

Not them, their parents. There’s always a big rise in applications for extra time in GCSE year, backed up by expensive diagnoses given by private consultants.

I could barely watch this show. I really, really dislike the grammar school system. There shouldn’t be any selective schools in the state sysmem. All schools should be able to cater to all children.

Segregating kids at 11 is clearly a ridiculous idea especially as the 11+ is not tutor proof. It disadvantages poorer kids.

BTW. My kids were educated overseas so I’m not a grammar school hater because of some personal gripe.

I live in a grammar area and am frankly terrified about the whole thing. My kids are preschoolers but I'm already stressing about which school to send them to to give them the best chances. It's so unfair - around here it's grammar schools or hugely underperforming sink schools. No middle ground at all.

comprehensives don’t exist in selective boroughs. They have grammars and secondary moderns (often called high schools or upper schools). Comprehensives exist in boroughs where there are no grammars or super selective grammar(s). Of course very often in non grammar boroughs there exists selection by other means eg by religion or independent schools.

I think the only way to persuade parents to not support selective education is to segregate children with poor behaviour in seperate units. There must be a 2 way street. Most people who opt for selection are fearful their child will have a disrupted education. You can then stream/set by subject the remaining well behaved children.