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Original poster

Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

852 replies

Foxy333 · 30/05/2018 15:31

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

OP posts:
Walkingdeadfangirl · 31/05/2018 23:41

Really, so you think it is fair if a school: ...
NO, I have said grammar is the most fair or the least unfair option.

can you name a single state school that says you have not inherited enough money to come to our school I have not said that they publicise/say it. However it is an integral part of their admissions. Are you saying its OK to discriminate against certain groups as long as you dont 'say' you are discriminating against them?

MumTryingHerBest · 31/05/2018 23:52

NO, I have said grammar is the most fair or the least unfair option.

So it is most fair if a Grammar School:

says you are not clever enough to come to our school.
says your family does not believe in the right god to come to our school.
says you do not live in the right area to come to our school.
says you do not have enough privilege to come to our school.

but it is not fair if any other school (including faith schools):

says your family does not believe in the right god to come to our school.
says you do not live in the right area to come to our school.

Confused
MumTryingHerBest · 01/06/2018 00:02

integral part of their admissions

Really so how does the school find out what you have inherited?

Are you saying its OK to discriminate against certain groups as long as you dont 'say' you are discriminating against them?

I'm pretty sure Grammar schools don't openly admit to discriminating against DCs with SEN and PP and you don't seem to have an issue with that.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 01/06/2018 00:10

MumTryingHerBest
Not sure why you are combining several types of selection, academic selection is fairer than faith, financial or privilege selection. Not sure where that gets us.

and yes I have a problem with schools actively discriminating against sen and pp pupils, be they grammar or comprehensive.

MumTryingHerBest · 01/06/2018 00:15

Not sure why you are combining several types of selection

Of the 163 Grammar Schools, how many select only on academic ability?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 01/06/2018 00:19

Of the 163 Grammar Schools, how many select only on academic ability?
Honestly I dont know, I am debating on the principal of academic selection. Am prepared to face the reality. Am I wrong?

On the other hand I also know it is a very small sample selection so probably not representative of reintroducing academic selection country wide.

Xenia · 01/06/2018 07:20

There is a lot of selection going on all over the place in life and I've never had a problem with it in schools. I even picked only single sex schools for my children which is another issue again. What always felt a bit unfair though is that some parts of the country have grammar schools and others don't. We either think thery are good as a nation and continue with them and have them in all areas or we don't. Perhaps we need more centralisation of education rather than letting local areas choose (the choices in the past have been on the basis of local politics - eg the NE abolished them where I am from in 1970 as they had a labour council if I remember correctly).

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2018 07:24

“Of the 163 Grammar Schools, how many select only on academic ability?
Honestly I dont know“

Well, they all say they select on academic ability and some add a distance criterion. None of them have any other stated criteria.

CowParsley2 · 01/06/2018 07:28

Houses don't just need to be £500k plus to be out of the range of many. Houses worth half that will be beyond the mortgage possibility of many.

KittyMcKitty · 01/06/2018 07:35

*“Of the 163 Grammar Schools, how many select only on academic ability?
Honestly I dont know“

Well, they all say they select on academic ability and some add a distance criterion. None of them have any other stated criteria.*

Strictly speaking they select on the results of the 11+ test and that test varies from county to county.

My children’s grammar school selects on whether you are qualified (qualification is different for pp pupils) and then by: in care, catchment siblings, catchment, non catchment- the upper school in the same time has the same policy minus the qualification.

The problem with any grammar school thread on MN is that it always states that people whose children are at Grammars have tutored since year 3 and that’s the only reason why they’re there and if they say otherwise they’re lying.

There are many faults with the grammar system but it is not the monster MN presents it to be.

KittyMcKitty · 01/06/2018 07:43

Total bold fail ^

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2018 07:50

I didn’t realize that any fully selective schools have a sibling criterion. How does that work?

Piggywaspushed · 01/06/2018 07:54

xenia I always thought it was more that a few (and here's another MN myth; it really is a few!) chose in defiance to hold on to grammar schools rather than a few 'banning' them in some sort of Labour defiance.

kitty - no , GSs are not monsters. Dinosaur may be the more appropriate metaphor!

KittyMcKitty · 01/06/2018 07:57

I didn’t realize that any fully selective schools have a sibling criterion. How does that work?

Basically the same as anywhere else except you need to be qualified.

We are Bucks and all Bucks schools have same policy.

You need to qualify (score 121+ or successful appeal) - you are either qualified or not.

So all qualified applicants who list the school are selected by following criteria:

In care
EHCP which names school
Catchment siblings (by distance)
Catchment (by distance)
Out of catchment siblings (by distance)
Out of catchment (by distance)

So you have to qualify first but then the above applies. Our upper school has exactly the same policy but without the need for qualification and with the addition of children of staff fairly high up.

Neither school has offered outside of catchment for a number of years and both have very similar catchment areas.

KittyMcKitty · 01/06/2018 08:03

Someone mentioned somewhere up thread about tge cost of uniform. The cost of uniform for my children’s grammar is roughly half the cost of that of the comp where I work. The comp has logo’d polo shirts/ jumpers which are very, very expensive - the grammar has a £30 blazer and a £5 tie.

Interestingly the jumper and polo wear very badly and quickly fade / fray so you can easily see who’s parents can’t afford/ can’t be bothered to replace uniform whereas the blazers last for ever and many many children have ones from the 2nd hand shop / hand me downs.

KittyMcKitty · 01/06/2018 08:34

This is the crux of the problem with any grammar school debate on MN. I would never make any assumptions good, bad or otherwise about the parents of and children who attend upper schools. So why is it the standard acceptable form to refer to those who are at / have children at GS in this sort of way:

which is what you call a school when it's had its most able/academic/children of pushy, sharp elbowed parents creamed off to a different school

I am neither pushy or sharp elbowed! My children were not tutored from year 3. They did not only pass the test because they were hot houses! They went to an average state school which was deemed “requires improvement “ for a fair amount of tge time they were there.

Debate is a great thing but comments like this aren’t debate!

Tansie1 · 01/06/2018 08:49

I know the euphemism 'Upper School' is apparently in common usage but even that, imo, is symptomatic of the issue at stake: 75% of the DC who took the 11+ aged 10 are now in a school where 'the failures' go.

Dress it up however you, and GS Headmaster- like, but that's the reality.

This system being 'the least unfair' is certainly damning it with faint praise!

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2018 08:52

I don’t care for the “pushy sharp elbowed” chractrizarions either- although there are grammar school parents who fit the description. There is a forum many of us have visited which is entirely populAted by them!
However. It is undeniable that 1) grammar schools are almost entirely populated by the children of educated middle class parents 2) that while some children will be able to pass the tests with no preparation at all, most will need at least some, and many will need a lot- particularly to score high enough for a super selective 3) that is it possible to make a reasonable estimation of which children will pass in Reception 4) that what happens before school and outside school is more important to 11+ outcomes than what happens in school.

And all of those points reinforces the wildly unfair nature of selection at 10.

StaplesCorner · 01/06/2018 08:59

Not sure if anyone has said this upthread but the grammar school in this programme Townley is to take over the management of Erith school, the comprehensive shown, which needs support so good news. I hope the kids get to benefit from this.

CowParsley2 · 01/06/2018 09:02

You can apply all of that to many schools in the comp sector and pretty much all tests- Sats,GCSEs....

Hillingdon · 01/06/2018 09:08

We used to live in Bucks. We went down the private route and didn't use the 11+ system. I failed the 11+ back in the day. However I am a great supporter of grammar's. In my view there should be one in every town. But I also want to see the T levels, the qualifications that allow the non academic to make their way in the world.

I did quickly skim through the documentary. I felt very sorry for the young black girl whose Mum just didn't see that paying for the tutor would make everything Ok. There were children all over the place in that house which didn't allow her to properly study and concentrate.

Was there a father in all of this?

Also speaking as a ex sec modern pupil where there were little expectations of us. I have children at a very well known boarding school. Not once was I judged on my savings, inheritance, title etc. My sons are not widely academic however both their prep and senior school took them to their highest level. Is life fair? Do some work more than others and earn more. Of course. For the majority of us there are choices. Some people make very poor choices time and time again. They choose to live off tax credits and refuse to work more than 16 hours because after all what is the point. My DM was an ex school teacher. She often had to take in a loaf of bread because Mum was still in bed when their child came to school. The parent literally couldn't be arsed to get out and give their child a piece of toast.

They were rarely seen at parents evening unless it was to start arguing that their child could wear an earing, come to school in non school uniform etc.

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2018 09:08

“You can apply all of that to many schools in the comp sector and pretty much all tests- Sats,GCSEs...“

Some schools in the comprehensive sector. And the point is that we should be trying to change those things . Not entrenching them. You can:t argue against a wrong thing by saying “But look at these other wrong things”

MoonriseKingdom · 01/06/2018 09:20

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36662965

This article shows the stats which suggest poor children are overall disadvantaged by the selective system in place in Kent. K
Interesting that it notes that The countries with high PISA results tend to have non selective systems.

roundaboutthetown · 01/06/2018 09:23

Xenia - the decision was made by central government in the mid-1960s to abolish the tripartite system of which grammar schools were part and to replace them with comprehensives. The entire country was supposed to do this. Some counties dragged their feet to such an extent that in the end they were allowed to keep their grammar schools. So it was not local politics that closed your NE grammar schools, it was central government policy, which the majority of councils complied with, hence the fact there are not many grammar schools in the UK. The tripartite system never worked well - lots of areas failed to even set up the secondary technical schools that were supposed to be part of it alongside the grammars and secondary moderns. And the reason it didn't work well was because it was recognised that the majority of children were getting an appallingly bad education out of it.

CowParsley2 · 01/06/2018 09:25

Grammars are trying to change. In time the measures many follow will start to have a bigger impact.

What is the comprehensive sector doing to expand acccess for the poorest to the best? What is the comp sector doing to ensure the poorest brightest kids gain access and stay in the top sets?What is the comp sector doing to ensure that it's poorest students make good progress and get the exams they need? After all middle class kids with home support and access to tutoring and the top sets have an unfair advantage in school entry and the UK exam system from Sats all the way up to uni entry across the board.

The grammar bashers like to focus on a teeny tiny proportion of schools whilst turning a blind eye to the very unfairness they like to bang on about that goes on in every single town across the country within the comprehensive sector. It really does make it hard to treat such whining seriously.