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Education

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Eton caught cheating on Pre-U

232 replies

BossWitch · 26/08/2017 08:22

Saw this on bbc's papers round up but can only find a full story link in the Fail, sorry.

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4824050/amp/Eton-deputy-head-quits-amid-claims-helped-pupils-cheat.html

Basically, a deputy head who was a senior examiner and involved in setting the exam leaked the exam materials to staff and students for one of the economics papers for the Cambridge Pre-U so all those marks have been disregarded. Deputy head has now left the school.

I'm quite shocked. What on earth was he thinking? And how much pressure must he have been under to ensure results that he thought this was a good idea?

Any Eton parents about on mumsnet today? What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Ontopofthesunset · 28/08/2017 23:40

What I really don't understand is why we have different boards at all and why there isn't just one exam that every child takes who is taking that subject. This sort of situation highlights one of the weaknesses of having different but supposedly equivalent exams, but there are so many other issues with it. Just think how many GCSE exam setters must be teaching all over the place.

Ceto · 28/08/2017 23:40

No doubt their offspring will continue to serve under graduates from that great Windsor school.

I've never "served under" an Eton graduate. I've had one or two serve under me, and have worked with and against some professionally. I can't claim ever to have been unduly impressed; indeed one got done for plagiarism, which seems to show a pattern of sorts.

BitOutOfPractice · 29/08/2017 00:04

"Exton pupils handed massive advantage over state school candidates" shocker.

Hold the front page Hmm

BoffinMum · 29/08/2017 05:57

For a long time boys' (and latterly girls') public schools provided the bulk of the secondary education available in this country, as most people only received elementary education. There were a few grammar schools in market towns but not many given the youth population overall.

These schools were 'public' as their aim was to produce an officer and civil service class for duty to their country. Originally most were designed for local boys but later became much more class-based. They were a lot cheaper to attend in real terms than similar schools today, and they were known for their 'muscular Christianity' with lots of sports and prayer.

The public school network was the primary place commissioned officers could usefully be drawn from, and Eton was one of the larger schools therefore provided more WW1 fodder, not because Eton was especially patriotic,

These days there is no expectation Etonians go into the church/army/civil service, and the explicit national policy link with notions of public schools educating a cadre of people to run the country is very much absent (it would be political death to say sonething like this). The school is hyper-selective largely on attainment at 11 or 13 combined with parental educational level and income (despite protestations and waving around of scholarships in public). Former Etonians fret at this as it used to have a more eclectic intake academically. Etonians from the more recent generations of graduates pop up in the City and in politics (amongst other things) still but in some industries many just don't fit very well as a rule, for example academia). That's as much to do with the families they are from as much as anything else.

I think Eton should return to its roots in a modern way. It should go completely co-ed, and needs-blind, but that's a whole other thread.

saucymom12 · 29/08/2017 09:40

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Lweji · 29/08/2017 09:47

saucymom12

Is it you Jeffrey?

Ta1kinPeece · 29/08/2017 09:54

ceto
Oxbridge have the tutorial system
out in the world of the rest of the university system we just have lectures.
DD's lectures are online - the exam writer makes their comments available to each and every student in equal measure.
If the focus of the department changes in the year, so does the exam.

In an 'A' Level situation, schools not rich enough to hire the examiner are stuffed.

I have no problem with exam writers working in schools
so long as the school is not teaching exactly that course.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 11:18

I spoke to my DS about the cheating that took place in history of art at Win Coll this year. He had a very interesting perspective on it. Sadly I don't feel I can detail his views because without a doubt there will be people on here who will attack him personally and I will not allow that happen.
But I do think that the question we do need to be asking ourselves is what is education for? Is it to pass exams, be they (I)GCSE Level, Pre U or IB or does to have some other purpose, in the case the studying of a subject like history of art and not being restricted by the curriculum because you love art and want to promote an understanding of art and artists amongst others that love it? He feels that the two aren't mutually compatible in this obsessive quest by both schools and parents for top grades. What would make you a better candidate for study HoA at university someone who's followed a relatively narrow curriculum managed to answer questions correctly or someone who has a genuine and deep understanding and knowledge of great masters?

mrz · 29/08/2017 12:34

No education isn't about passing exams however obtaining a place at university requires applicants to meet criteria which is measured largely by their ability to reach a certain standard in those exams. The idea being I assume is that no one has an unfair advantage.

VikingVolva · 29/08/2017 12:40

"What would make you a better candidate for study HoA at university someone who's followed a relatively narrow curriculum managed to answer questions correctly or someone who has a genuine and deep understanding and knowledge of great masters?"

Neither of the above. This really isn't an either/or question. I'd be looking for someone who has managed to answer questions correctly and show passion about their subject. Especially if the passion has led them to being largely self-taught (for example coming from a school with a challenging demographic, that may not offer art at all, having A levels in say offering history English and DT but with self-produced portfolio and with voluntary work at a local gallery)

Ceto · 29/08/2017 12:57

I'm in two minds about the narrow syllabus issue. I can see why exam authorities need to set some sort of syllabus so that it is an even playing field, but I can also see how that puts some students off, particularly the brighter ones.

I think the answer is in part to limit the number of A levels children take to a maximum of three. I always feel that if I were in charge of university admissions, I would be deeply unimpressed with someone who turns up with six A levels, since all that it would prove is that they have studied six subjects within the confines of those very narrow syllabuses and are good at passing exams. I would be much more impressed with someone who had demonstrated his love for my subject by using their time to go into much wider reading and in-depth research; or indeed who demonstrated that they were well-rounded individuals by using their time constructively in other ways than churning out exam passes.

TawnyPippit · 29/08/2017 13:14

When I was at school - which was a large and fairly straightforward comprehensive, neither leafy nor stabby - our Head of Maths was writing the exam the year I did O level maths. (She was head of the exam setting committee or similar). I remember very clearly that she did not take a group for Maths in that year, but swapped out to do more of the A level work (where she was not involved in the exam writing).

As a 15 year old, I probably had not at that stage heard the phrase "conflict of interest" but it was entirely understood that she should, could and would not have any part of the O level teaching. So I'm a bit surprised that Eton found this hard to understand.

cantkeepawayforever · 29/08/2017 13:17

I think that, if we go down the 'what is education about?' line (perhaps creating a myth of an inspiring teacher who creates a love of the subject in all their pupils by exploring way beyond the syllabus ... but as a result then has to be somewhat unscrupulous in their approach to passing the required exams) then we run into the issue of fairness.

Is it 'fair' that a brilliant but maverick educator should be 'allowed' to play fast and loose with the rules of a niche qualification, while 'normal teachers' in 'normal schools' have to mind their ps and qs and be careful in following the rules of a more mass qualification? In particular, is this 'fair' when the two qualifications are regarded as equal when to comes to university admissions?

If a school wishes to pride itself in the depth and quality of its education beyond the syllabus (which to be fair it absolutely should, at a minimum, because it has many times the funding per student), that is fine, and as a result many of its pupils will go on to be successful both in applying to universities where interviews are required, and in their future careers. However, the 'on paper qualifications' should be the same, and acquired under exactly the same controlled conditions, as everywhere else.

I read this story more as evidence of the extreme pressure that must be put on such schools by their parental body to ensure 'the success that we have paid for'. I have British-educated acquaintances who have taught at top American universities, who have been attacked by students for 'not giving the right grades - the grades I pay my fees for', and I can see that parents who have paid the fees as a British public school could feel they have a right to top grades, as a simple commercial transaction. Enabling that to happen - by selecting specific qualifications where success can be more certainly predicted or manipulated, by fair means or foul - becomes a commercial imperative for such schools.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 14:22

"I read this story more as evidence of the extreme pressure that must be put on such schools by their parental body to ensure 'the success that we have paid for'."
I think this is a genuine problem in many independent schools often linked to unrealistic expectations. IME many parents with children at schools like Win Coll and Eton assume their children are super bright and therefore have very high expectations which when combined with the not inconsiderable fees. I used to listened open mouthed to some parents: When X (who's 13) is at Oxford, When Y (who's 15) goes to Harvard. On reading some of the letters we received from the school it was very clear that they were trying to say to some of the pushy parents in a roundabout fashion sorry X has not made it ono the potential Oxbridge candidate list (or whatever) and thats tough and we're not going to discuss it further. At both prep level and secondary I used to watch fascinated as parens at parent teaching meeting analysed exam and prep marks, analysing why B didn't do well as they believed he should. I Ince queried the set my DS was in for one subject (with a view to moving him down) the teacher clearly misunderstood me and became very nervous and jittery.
I seen spread sheets with prep and exam marks charted. My DS left Winchester to take a gap year he had not applied to university and in fact didn't even know if he wanted to go, many parent were surprised by how casual I was about this. Or horror of horrors he was thinking of studying a subject that doesn't lead into a definite career, the comment "whats he going to do with that?" was frequently made, he goes onto a very well regarded university in a few weeks but not a fashionable one in the world of public schools, many suggested why doesn't he look at X instead? I only meet these parents a few times year what must their children feel and the teachers. I can assure you that this is not a Win Coll phenomenon, it's happening in similar independent schools across the UK and its happening in significantly less selective indepenedent schools. Many parents are firmly believe that money buys you results and therefore expect top results both pupils and schools are under considerable pressure.
IM not excusing cheating by anyone ion any sector but I can see how it happens and the fact that it occurs in both sectors is an indication that this pressure to get the right results is universal. I listened to some of You and Yours on R4 today, the question "how can we help our children to succeed?" Parents were ringing detailing their recipe for success the vast majority of it was academic success.
What about how can we make our children better citizens in 2017? or How can we make our children more globally aware? I guess its because these aren't measurable achievements.
I suspect until we as parents change our ideas about what success actually means then schools will cheat whether it be holding up laminated cards in French orals or giving strong hints as to what is it likely to be on an exam paper.

EmpressoftheMundane · 29/08/2017 14:51

Perhaps some of these private schools should moderate their fees a bit. Parents who live off of earned income tend to be more "Down to Earth" I think. The schools have become more and more bastions of the super rich and aren't grounded in local mores, customs and manners. I've lived and worked on four continents. There are some places where everybody "cheats" gives jobs to nephews, skims a bit etc. Even "nice" people do it. It's expected. There are other social obligations and expectations that are more important to meet, such as supporting extended family, than dealing fairly with strangers and abstract others that one has never met. This general ability to trust that strangers will normally keep their word snd be fair with you in Anglo Saxon countries is s huge economic advantage to us. It's slow decline, by selling ourselves to the whims of the fliabal super rich is very sad. When you lose these things you cannot easily get them back.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 15:03

Im curious to know what you mean by "live off their earned income". In my experience all the fathers worked, few if any were lounging around on yachts 52 weeks of the year.
Also if you get a group of fee paying parents together (regardless of the school) your be surprised how quickly the fees are mentioned and many claim they are struggling to pay them. £37K pa is a lot of money and many parents will be paying for 2-3 children at various schools.
I think you are deluded if you think there is no corruption in "Anglo Saxon" countries" I know many who would tell a different tale I'm afraid.

EmpressoftheMundane · 29/08/2017 15:19

Sigh. If you earn a £1m a year, as many parents of DC in elite London schools do, you may work very hard, and you may pay out if income, but you won't worry too much.

I never said all the Anglo Saxon diaspora are "good eggs," either. There are traditional social norms which are helpful though. I'm not the first person to notice this. Off hand I can think if they Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto.

I'm also not saying that Anglo culture is the only culture with this social advantage. Its not. It is however the one we live in.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 15:25

In my experience those on £1 million a year and much more still want value for money. They may worry not about paying for it in terms of stumping up the money every term but getting their monies worth is very important to them.
I think the idea that Anglo Saxons are ruled by "traditional social norms" that means they are not averse to a bit of bribery and corruption is like the old school tie a total myth but one that many seem to enjoy perpetuating.

EmpressoftheMundane · 29/08/2017 15:38

One more time Happy:

  1. Anglo culture isn't perfect, and everyone who is a part of it does not embody all of its better tendencies.
  1. It is not the only culture that has the feature of generally being able to trust strangers.

Argue with what I have said if you wish to. Don't ram my words to their logical absurdity.

BTW, I'm not an "Anglo Saxon," but I can see that high levels of wealth inequality, is likely to ruin the place and spoil everything for almost everybody.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 15:56

I'm not quite sure Empress why your getting quite so aggressive?
Im querying your belief in existence of "traditional social norms".
High levels of "wealthy inequality" have always existed, this is not a new phenomenon. Whether they should exist or not or what there impact on society is is another thread!
Secondly many of those with high levels of wealth I'm assuming you talking about oligarchs, Sunday Times Rich Listers and billionaires not just your run of the mill millionaire are frequently not "Anglo Saxon".

BasiliskStare · 29/08/2017 16:27

Regardless of the circumstances of those particular cases, because I simply do not know .

If people think that by and large the likes of Winchester / Eton ( insert public / private school of your choice ) get you inflated grades because of cheating - I disagree. Argue all you like about selective intake etc - yep - fair point. Cheating - no .

EmpressoftheMundane · 29/08/2017 16:28

I'm getting aggressive because you are playing games and purposely misreading me. I don't like it. I think it's "aggressive" Happy.

Statistically, inequality of both wealth and income is rising.

happygardening · 29/08/2017 17:56

"Statistically, inequality of both wealth and income is rising."
Please show me where I have said it isn't?
I'm genuinely not playing games, or purposely misreading you I'm putting my opinion forward and questioning what you say. I was unaware that either are crimes on MN and certainly don't require anyone to get so stroppy over it.
This is not the hideous AIBU section.
Basilisk I too don't think cheating is rife in the independent sector anymore than it is rife in the state sector.
As you say schools like Eton Winchester et al get top grades year in year out because they very carefully select their pupils and chuck them out if they think they're not going to make the grades (as do state grammar schools).

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 29/08/2017 20:22

I infer from Lweji's posts that she is a university academic.
I don't think history is her subject.

EmpressoftheMundane · 30/08/2017 08:01

Apologies Happy. I accept that I have misread you.