Dreamer of dreams,born out of my due time, Why should I strive to set the crooked straight. Wm Morris

[indignatio]

Hopefully the link from the other thread will work

My stats

ds is 4.5 - summer born
In reception class

Has issues with:-
Easy distractability (school work and practical tasks)
Concentration problems when not totally engaged by something (95% of the time)
Fidgeting
Getting "lost" in the middle of a complicated sentence/explaination.
Bossy manner
Isolation at school
Poor eye contact
Repetition of sentences until he hears the acknowledgement
No herding instinct

On the positive
Very loving boy
Exceptional reader for his age
Good at maths
Lots of "home" friends
If gripped by something, can concentrate on it for ages

dx:
teacher initially thought he might have dyspraxia - no longer thinks so.
I consider that he has more add traits, but would not go so far as to say he has add.
SENCO to informally assess him next week and then meeting to be arranged with parents, teacher and senco shortly thereafter.

Not sure what else I should put in.

Indignatio! I've just read your post back in May about your child repeating what's just been said to them even though you're in the same room! My DD1 does that all the time and it's really odd!

She also does that thing you've been talking about on here where they repeat what they've said until they get an acknowledgement, except an acnowledgement isn't enough it has to be an exact repetition of what she said (no substituting you/they/he/she/it etc).

I think I've found her soul mates in all your children, oh joy!

Welcome to the dreamers thread! The comment you make about your response to questions is very interesting. We were told not to keep repeating questions for that very reason - the amount of time it takes for the child to process the question means that if you repeat it they'll have to begin the whole 'rewinding' process again. This was in relation to DS2, who has autism, rather than dreamer DS1, but I still think it's relevant and I use the strategy suggested for both boys. We were advised to ask the question once, making sure that he wasn't concentrating on anything else at the time. Then, if no reply, prompt the answer (this is for DS2, who only uses single words atm). If DS1 doesn't reply I say 'DS1 did you hear what I said?' and get him to repeat the question/instruction back to me. If he repeats it correctly I say 'OK, now I know you've heard, I expect you to answer / do whatever it is'.

It is very frustrating though!

Oh yes that delayed (or non-happening) answer. Oh yes indeed.

I've just discussed with ds (who's 8 and fairly self-aware now) why/how it happens - he agreed with the "re-playing the words in my head" idea - and then we talked about what the other reasons (for him) are.

And here they are:

1. Re-playing the words, and in doing so forgetting that a question needs an answer.

2. Trying to come up with an accurate proper answer, not a lazy one (eg to "What did you do at school today?" he'll spend a while trying to remember what he did first - rather than answering off the top of his head).

3. Having something else to think about & not being able to cut through the "noise" of those other thoughts to connect with the question. This is possibly the most usual reason.

4. Having an idea of what to answer but not being able to marshal your words: ds has a degree of "verbal dyspraxia" - like a sort of semantic stutter, where he finds it quite difficult to come up with a cogent reply first off. He often sounds like a cryptic crossword clue, & you have to ask him to re-phrase before it makes sense.

But underlying all these and really fundamental is, I think, a difference in language-instinct - so brain wiring. Language is just not in the top layer of ds's brain (whereas it totally is in dd's - she talks cogently while she's asleep) and that is a fixed point we have to work with. It does mean that he has lovely unusual ways of expressing himself, & making connections between things, though - a benefit of this difference in wiring.

Just to finish my thought about language-instinct, based on comparing ds with dd: if you ask dd a question, you get an instant answer. The question-answer interaction is, for her, always more important than anything else going on - analogy would be, say, importance of Mummy in a room of strangers - so I am quite sure her focus is to do with instinct.

This fits in with how ds & dd were as babies/toddlers - ds talked fine, but I clearly remember telling a doctor when he was 2ish that "you can't really have a conversation" with him. Whereas the give-and-take (pre-dating actual conversation) was happening with dd from only months old.

Bink - I think I love your DS! Those last two posts have really helped me to see some possible reasons why DS1 doesn't answer questions straight away. My attempts to have a similar conversation with DS1 have only produced one insight:
"I can't answer questions while I'm walking" .

I can see that we will be able to discuss things like this more cogently by the time he's eight though.

Hello all. Bink has just directed me over here and I thought I'd say hello. I haven't had time to read the whole thread (I am supposed to be translating a conference paper.. aargh!) but I've read enough to know that my dd1 'fits' the dreamer mould in many ways. She is 7.4 and has just gone into Year 3. She's quite bright, especially wrt reading, but has huge difficulties concentrating, which led to some problems in Year 2 when she had a teacher who just didn't seem to 'get' her at all. (This year seems a lot better so far... but it's only been two weeks... There is still time for her to drive her new teacher completely round the bend .) She does a lot of the things I've read about below, especially the not responding to (apparently not having heard) questions/directions! She is also clumsy/uncoordinated, loud, cries/gets upset easily, fidgets, very orally-fixated (this week alone she has chewed holes in not one, but two (vest-style) pyjama tops (what is that all about????), etc. I could go on, but you get the gist. She is also stunningly beautiful (well... I would say that, wouldn't I?) and loving. She's hard work, but she also gives a helluva lot back.

Just saying hello for now, but I'll be back!

PS Best thread title on MN!

Thanks for your son's reasons for delayed answering Bink, they're really helpful. I think no.3 is the most common with my DD1 too, she's just so wrapped up in her own thoughts that she doesn't hear me. A while ago I wondered if she thought I knew the answer because I knew what she was thinking so she didn't need to say it out loud, if that makes sense. Even her 3 year old brother is getting frustrated with her not answering his questions. When I told her she needed to answer him she replied "Well he won't give me a biscuit if I don't say yes will he!" We do tend to repeat questions over and over again though getting more and more frustrated, so thanks Sphil for the advice about saying it once and checking they've heard you, etc. I must try that.

Hi Ellbell, you're daughter sounds a lot like mine, apart from the oral fixation, I don't know what that's all about either!

One thing we've had some success with is Homeopathy, I don't know if anyone else has tried it? We have a very good Children's Homeopath where we live and I've taken DD1 to see her several times. First when she was 2 and still not sleeping well and DS2 was due, and the results were miraculous - she has slept through virtually every night since! Which made her a lot calmer during the day, she'd been frantic with exhaustion before then which was why I thought she was hyperactive.

And again more recently for emotional issues; she was going through a really angry, stroppy phase and would go into huge uncontrollable rages, and the homeopathy helped a lot with that too. She also had a real fear of cats and dogs at that time - having previously liked them she would get hysterical if she so much as saw a cat or dog, and the homeopathy cured that too. So I can recommend it.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already but is there any corelation between dreamers having had difficult births? I had a long, difficult labour with DD1 and she was born using Ventouse as she had the cord round her neck. DS2 on the other hand just popped out 2 hours after arriving at the hospital. It would be interesting to know if other dreamy children had a tricky entry into the world? (I'm thinking that it could cause some kind of slight brain damage which affects the areas these children have trouble with , eg auditory processing, co-ordination, language skills)

I was going to mention dd's birth FairyCakeMaker, but thought I'd gone on long enough .

I had placenta praevia and was in hospital from 27 weeks onwards. She was born by elective section at 36 weeks. So no 'birth trauma', but she was small (even for a 36 week baby) at 4lb 12oz and very very sleepy for quite some time. She had a lot of problems feeding (leading to me giving formula from 6 weeks on) but no other health problems. We think that the reason she was small was that during my various bleeding episodes during the pregnancy I had lost various bits of placenta, so she was a bit undernourished. No idea if that could have had anything to do with how she is now.

I have to say that I recognise a lot of myself in her, but she seems to 'have it' in a more extreme form than me!

The tricky birth question does come up quite a bit - but there is also a very persuasive argument that these problems pre-date birth & relate to how the brain developed in the womb - theory then being that that babies whose brains have developed in this non-usual way don't have the normal wiring for co-operating with the birth process - they don't produce the right hormone in the right amounts at the right time - or something. And hence the tricky births.

I don't know. Ds's birth was tricky - emergency caesarean after two days of non-progressing induction after he was nearly two weeks late. (The nearly two weeks late + failure-to-progress is what makes me think that maybe he wasn't doing whatever chemical thing unborn babies need to do as their job in the process.)

Dd was born by planned caesarean as soon as she started to go overdue, to save her what ds went through. So I can't do a comparison there. But she is the far opposite end of whatever spectrum ds is on, so she's a useful comparison otherwise!

On your "does she think I know the answer without her saying it?" thought: I've wondered about that too, as it's an example of the "impaired theory of mind" that is one approach to this spectrum of difficulties - and hence you'd perhaps expect it as a reason.

So I've tried to test that one, by saying "you do realise I won't know what it is you want unless you tell me" - etc. - at which ds looks at me as if I am dim (bit like your dd's answer on the biscuit!). So I think the fundamental grasp of "other minds" is there - it's more that he doesn't appreciate that I want to know the answer and that he should want to tell me.

Thanks Bink, that is really helpful. You have described my DS exactly in points 3 & 4 of your Saturday 11.02 post.

Welcome Ellbell & CFCM. I'm in a bit of a rush so have only read quickly but would be interested to hear more about alternative treatments CFCM. DS is going through quite an anxious phase at the moment. Quite fearful & bursts into tears quite a lot. I put it down to starting back at school but over the summer when he had an ear infection & antibiotics (grr) he was even scared of chickens & the aeroplanes passing over head (every minute where we live) for about a week!!!! I was chatting to someone this week who immediately picked up on the possible cause of DS's dreaminess when she said it could be something that didn't develop correctly pre-natally - somewhere in the LHS of the brain I think? I've heard this before from a couple of paeds. Anyway, sorry for ramble (after being in rush ) but I would be interested to hear more ChiefFairyCakeMaker. Thanks. You can also email me '[email protected]' if you want to talk off-line, so to speak.

Also, re birth trauma: DS was an elective CS so no trauma at all but he did develop plagiocephaly (head flattening & asymmetry) and it's not completely corrected itself, as happens with most children. I sometimes wonder if this has an affect on his auditory processing/language skills etc.

My DTs were born at 36 weeks by elective c section weighing 4lbs each. I sometimes worry about the lack of nourishment thing too. Dt2 had always been bigger up until near the end and then they both weighed the same at birth which seemed odd. It had always been Dt2 who was the larger of the 2 and sometimes I think did he not get enough in the last couple of weeks and his weight dropped. He put on weight rapidly after birth and as he had a larger frame anyway it seemed as if he was trying to get back to where he was. (Probably nonsense and I am more inclined to think that the wiring thing when the brain develops is more likely but the thought does cross my mind from time to time)

castles its my Dt1 that has a flat head. Never been diagnosed with having phlagiocephaly but I'm pretty sure thats what it is. The HV said at the time I asked her about it that it would sort itself out but it never really did. It looks fine with hair but I think it may look funny if he goes bald. However no auditory processing problems with Dt1, the opposite in fact.

DS1 born at 36 weeks too! Straightforward birth though, and no problems afterwards - bf for England and put on huge amounts of weight very quickly. But he was a dreamer from the word go - lots of staring over our shoulders, problems holding his head up (we thought it was because he was so fat) and couldn't weight-bear on his legs for ages.

DS1 was full-term, but I had a very long first stage of labour (3 days of contractions with no dilation), though the eventual birth at midnight on the 4th night was straightforward and intervention-free.

I became ill on day 4 with what would have been called childbed fever - a haemolytic strep infection - and after my recovery he became ill on day 11. The same bacterium was presumably responsible for his illness, but it presented as a rapidly spreading cellulitis in his buttock. He was very, very ill and was transferred from Kingston to PICU at St. George's, where thankfully they changed the drug regimen. He was on really heavy IV antibiotics (4 drugs in 16 daily doses) and needed an operation to drain the abscess that eventually developed. He was in hospital for nearly 2 weeks.

He needed oral antibiotics for a further 2 weeks after discharge.

I think all the drugs may have triggered his food intolerances.

Interesting to read the birth stories. Must go as my curry has arrived!

This is SO interesting! The nutritionist we see for DS2's biomedical stuff is convinced of the compromised immune system/allergy/ bowel problems/autism link (he explains it very well and I can follow it when he's talking to me, but get rather lost when I try to explain it to other people!). DS2, who's autistic, had a severe skin infection at 10 days old (see thread on SEN tonight) for which he needed major doses of antibiotics. He has multiple food intolerances, eczema, asthma and autism.

DS1 has no obvious allergies at all, so far anyway. But he does have a dodgy gut - lots of problems with constipation when younger and even now he only does one enormous poo about once every 2-3 days. He's also very farty, which I've often thought might be food intolerance.

Hmmm - wonder if there is a link between early babies, birth trauma/illnesses in infancy, early antibiotic use and differences in brain wiring?

DS3 was just 3 days early, the lightest of all my children (at 9lb 4oz) and a problem-free home birth (not even cord round neck which both my others had).

But then I have always believed there's nothing fundamentally the matter with him, and wished the school would just stop looking for problems that aren't there, and encourage him to do his work to the best standard he can, rather than giving him the message he isn't capable of much . (I'm not that much of a pushy mum, honest. While I'd love a yacht and a mansion, I'd settle for the boys being self-sufficient and reasonably happy.)

School seems to be going better this year - the teacher's very good, and DS3's general attitude is improving, so I'm optimistic .

Welcome Ellbell & CFCM

ds was a very easy birth - popped out 10 mins after arriving at the hospital. No real problems with the pregnancy, but I didn't get the hang of breast feeding so by 6 weeks he was exclusively formula fed.

Yr1 seems to be suiting ds, the added structure is more him than all the free play. Although, he says that he has not been allowed on the computer as yet. I think that this is because he has to have finished his written work before he can have a turn. He did tell me that the teacher was "not very impressed" when he had only written two words (one spelled incorrectly) when he was supposed to writing about - wait for it- "What I did in my summer holiday". Apparently, according to ds, he was too busy watching the others.

Ds has improved on the repitition front, but this has been replaced by boring on about the latest moves in Lego Chess or Star Wars - he has absolutely no sense of when a conversation may not be interesting to others.

WRT mind reading, I do feel that I have a close connection with ds (not sure how usual this is as I only have one child), and so often one is aware of what the other is thinking.

Bink, I think no 3 is my ds, but will ask him tonight, after his playdate with the cool kid in his class. He has been looking forward to this for a week, and I probably will hear about nothing but the playdate for the next week.

I remember DS1 being much happier in Yr 1 than Reception - agree about the free play being difficult. I'm afraid your description of DS doing his writing made me laugh - so like DS1 it's untrue. (Do think it's unfair that slow writers are made to wait for computer though - when typing would really help them!)

Castles - not sure what else I can tell you about Homeopathy. Briefly Homeopathy treats people as individuals and treats personality types rather than treating conditions or illnesses (eg. two people with a sore throat would not be treated with the same remedy if they have different personalities) and homeopathy takes all sorts of things into account when prescribing; a full case history is taken from what sort of birth the child had, how they fed, developmental milestones, childhood illnesses, how they sleep, what they like and don't like to eat, bowel movements, any fears or phobias...you name it!

There are plenty of websites that can tell you more, and help you find a Homeopath in your area if you want to pursue it. I'm in West Yorkshire, but if you're anywhere near I can let you have the details of the homeopath we use. I believe there is a network of homeopaths that specialise in working with children that you should be able to google for, although that's not essential - a general homeopath would do.

Interesting to hear all the birth realted stories. I like the bit about faulty wiring in the brain. I think there must be some sort of link.

ChiefFairyCakeMaker... whereabouts are you? I am near Wakey.

Ellbell - I'm in Hebden Bridge. I was in Wakefield last week on a training course for work at The Orangery (nice place and a great free lunch!) What a small world. How are the schools there? DD1 is at a nice small primary school.

Do you have any other DC's besides DD1? I take it she's the oldest? Because most of the first-born and only-child girls I know are quite er...headstrong (okay stroppy!) my own DD1 included.

I live outside Wakefield (in a little town called Ossett) and the schools here are really exceptionally good. The schools in Wakefield generally are a bit mixed, I think. DD1 was a bit unfortunate in her Year 2 teacher last year. She was a good teacher, I think, for 'normal' (v. tongue-in-cheek use of the word, btw!) kids, but didn't really 'get' DD1 at all and found her very challenging. This year's teacher seems better, but we'll have to wait and see how it goes. We have a start-of-year parents' evening next week (as it's also a new school... separate infants and juniors here).

Yes, I also have a DD2 (the original Ellbell!) who is 5 and the complete opposite in many ways. Very laid back and an 'easy' child in many ways. And yet, and yet... she is also sensitive, but in different ways. Doesn't have the concentration problems but has various sensory 'issues' (completely freaked at Magna for instance because it was dark/light, hot/cold, there were loud/unexpected noises; loathes bonfire night, etc.).

I guess they all have their little foibles.

How old is your dd?