Agonising over school choice

[llareggub]

Well, not really. Just can't understand the lengths to which people go to get their precious little darling into the right school.

Unless there is some legitimate need, why won't the local school do? Parent pressure might then drive up quality.

Obviously everyone wants the best for their child but what diference does a good school make to an average/above average child? Is there just a marginal diference?

Parental influence just as important/more important IMO.

Sorry havent read all of the thread but I agree yes we all want the best school available for our children. For some people though they have no choice but a sink hole school, it is not fair. Some people do not have the choice of moving or private education or even being able to afford the travel to the next available school.

We are hopefully next week going to find out our son has a place at a secondary with a good record. It we have been lucky enough to secure a place it does mean we wil have to pay his travel as it is not our local school but our second nearest school. There are others in his class who can't afford to have this school as an option as their parents can't afford the travel.

I just think overall it is unfair, they are only 10 / 11years old and at times have to jump through so many hoops to get a good education. Every child has a right to a good and broad education where ever they live and whatever their social background is.

But actually MegJoshMum, the point of the OP was that she doesn't take that view! Her view is that a good school makes a mrginal difference to a child of average/above average intelligence.

I guess looking at Tigermoth's experience (and even thinking of my own dcs), how do you know whether you child is "average" or "above average" or not? From Tigermoth and Katymac's experience a child who was drifting down class rankings in one school can flourish in another.

Ladymuck that's an interesting question. I think I knew my son was of at least average ability as this is what all his teachers were telling me from the time he first started school - many told me he was an able child, in fact. But this opinion was always tagged on as an afterthought at the end of a long negative talk about his poor concentration and behaviour.

The first school he was at put all the focus on his apparent SEN behaviour issues. But even there, the teachers said despite everything, despite never seeming to listen or do much written work in class, he had a good grasp of the subjects they were teaching.

For ages, even when ds changed schools to go to the 'good' school I had a standard question I used to ask teachers at parent/teacher evenings. I asked if the ability set that my son is in for 'x' subject was a reflection of his natural ability or his present performance? So many teachers through the years told me he had the ability to perform much better in class, but his behaviour held him back. I thought it was crucial to know how this view was translated when it came to streaming and setting.

I was still not sure whether to enter ds for the 11+ when he was in beginning year 5 as he was not in all the top sets, and I knew the exam was quite tough. However, we decided he was in with a chance and the teacher agreed.

I think ds will always have the tendency to not pull out all the stops when it comes to academic work or work in general, perhaps - like plenty of other people! While he is at school, I will try to help lessen the gap between what he can do and what he wants to do.

tm, quite a lot of disruptive pupils are bored in class and not stretched enough and that can mean they end up being seen as having problems in the wrong environment.

I'm just reading the paper here and see slightly fewer pupils from state schools getting into university. It says 7% of children go to private schools and for many of the better universities half the places go to pupils from private schools. 51.4% at Oxford from state schools. Interesting what admissions tutors say - everyone applying to these good places has AAA or AAB for a start even in the state sector so you're trying to disguish AAA from AAA so you turn to the interview. "Pupils particularyl those from state schools do not have the basic communication and leadership skills to make an impact" amd private schools have more pupils with A levels in sciences and languages.

Sixth formers are going to have to declare on their application form if their parents have a degree under some plans. So not are you rich, posh and went to private school but did your parent from the worst possible background may be still manage to get a degree and then the fact that parent did means that child is less likely to get in. Bizarre.

xenia, not having read all this thread I am not sure what point you are making about disruptive backgrounds.

Marina, your hall is an artistic haven - your dd and ds's pictures on the wall are really rather wonderful

No wonder you didn't see what was on the floor - there are too many nice things to look at higher up! (and the cover was mainly grey anyway so it wouldn't leap out at you).

This is an issue which is much on my mind, even tho my two are still only just starting out in primary school.

I went to a very good comp and did lots of public speaking, performing, debating etc. I went on to get as first at uni.

The local state comp is in special measures atm and as things stand now I'd be very unhappy for my dcs to go there. If we sit tight, it might be fantastic in five years' time. But then again it might not!

We've been thinking about moving on order to get them into a 'better' school but I'm still unclear as to what that means exactly and as a secondary teacher I'm probably a) morew critical than most parents; b) more aware of the range of schools in our local area, and therefore more confused by the sheer scope of choice!

I think that I was just plain lucky in that I did well at a state comp and emerged very self-confident (probably too much so! ) and full of opinions. I don't presume that my dcs will be as lucky as I was. HOwever my 'luck' was defined by the people at the school I went to - both the teachers and my friends, many of whose parents could have afforded to send them to an independent school.

So I don't know the answer, whether 'tis better to suffer the slings and bows of ourageous fortune in a state comp or to pay for the privileges of an independent, or to play the game and move house in order to get into one of the best state schools.

I'm not much good, am I?!?

(BTW do I win the prize for middle class angst?!? )

My ex husband got a teaching job in schools where the fees were paid for you (we paid 15%) although that's not the case for all or probably most private schools but it's another option if you're a teacher and if you've 3 children can add as much as £30k after tax income a year for a day school. We knew someone whose wife taught in the prep school - 3 children virtually free education to age 13 and the huband in the fairly famous boarding school - free fees to 18. Plust they got a school house too so no housing costs to pay. Teaching isn't a bad deal sometimes.

Yes, that's what my jammy sister has pulled off too!

I'm not sure tho - I'm in the middle of an existential dilemma about the types of setting in which I want to live and my dcs to grow up. This also encompasses what type of friends do we want them to have, and ultimately what type of people do we want them to become? (not that we can ever make our dcs in our own image, but we can influence them hugely by what we choose to expose them to and what to shield them from). I'm not sure that indy schools are always the best provision, financial considerations aside.

BTW am I the only person who asks this type of question? Am I over-analysing?

I'd be happier morally with a state school, but not at the expense of my dcs' education and opoprtunities. And therein lies the rub. (I'm having a very Shakespearean day today! )

Here I think one major boarding school offers teachers a 90% discount; another offer 50-75% discount (depending on contract when you joined) and the top academic doesn't offer any discount whatsoever to teachers.

The fees vary (for day pupils) from £7.5k pa throughout senior school (top academic single sex) through £9.5-£11.5k to £11.3k-£16.6k.

A teacher in these school would pay (in the same order) between £1.3k and £7.5k to educate their child privately. And, for those of you who don't work in education and get taxed on your perks of the job, discounted school fees are not a taxable benefit!

Oops sorry -not same order. Edited post and didn't take that out!

sorry I have not replied I have been busy providing a sub standard education for ppoor kids.

Parnetal involvement does make a huge difference to schools, of course it is better if more parentsare involved and thatis why I think that by abandoning the state sector you are affecting the education provided to all children.

Parental involvement is a key to the success of many church schools such as the one mydaughter goes to. THis is either because parents do give a shit so much so that they jump through hoops to be seen in church to get their kids in and will volunteer for anything once their kids are there. Parental invlovement works in another way not justwith parents being involves with the head or class teacher but with each other. My daughter knows thatif she plays up if I am not in school for something that week , and I am most weeksI will see the head, the other parents or her teacher at church and I will say something. Conversly the head and staff know that if we are not happy we will say something.

ASfor a few parents making a difference it does happen even in my school where you get two parents turning up for a whole school meeting. For example we have a girl in our school whose father checks through her books rigourously and will come into school in a flash if thingsarenot right. In the past things ahve not been right and teacher have been disciplined. I can guarantee you that this girl gets a good education at our school because her parents give a shit and do complain if things are not right. I think this is a good thing and am happy at any time for parents to come in and look at their childrens work or observe me in action and give me constructive feedback. A good number of the teachers atour school send their kids to us, there may be a bit of liberal do gooder politics going on but theyalso know thatthay as parents who show an interest in their kids education can one secure a good education for their own kids and in doing so improve standards for the other children as well.

I feel very proud to work at my school and I do work thatis as good if not better than the local grammar and private schools, basing this assumption on talking to colleagues on INSETdays from grammar and private schools in lancashrie and cheshire who ahveactually convinvced me thatIw as right no to send my daughter into the private sector as their teaching skills were very poor. But am digressing there as I said I am proud to work in my school but I knwo it woudl be a better school if it were not the sink school for transisent kids who ahave no choice or parents who don't care. The only people who can change that fact are parents.

But if a group of parents from a primary all decide together that you will send your kids to the local state school you arenot a lown voice but one of a number to start and I could guarantee thatother parents would support you.

When dd was at nusery a number of parents including myself looked at all the avilable options including three private schools for our children and decided that we together woudl send our kids to the local school. Admitadly not as huge a decision as is for others as dd school is very good, althouhj on paper there were others that were better. We have decided that if we areall still here we will do the same at secondaryso we can staywithin the state sector and as a collective group to ensure our kids geta good education.

But at private schools you would just virtually never get the teacher not marking etc properly so don't really need to check.

Sue, very interesting and important point. I just wanted to replicate how I am so the children fit in with my family and life and that was private schools always and middle class. But I didn't want them boarding school educated, children with too much money, trust fund sort of influences so we just replicated how we were and that worked fine so the children fit in with our lives.

If I were working class and state school educated I might have problems with making my children different.

Their cousins on my exhusband's side are very different for lots of reasons but in part because they had a very different state school education yet that is just the same as their own parents have and they fit into the lives of their parents and their friends.

I have been on INSET days with teachers from private and grammar schools and when I ahve asked them about marking as it is the task I do thattakes up the mostof my time and I was interested in how they coped I was appaled attheir marking policies. I amrk every week or everyoter week if kids have taken their book home, each kid get a level, effort grade and a diagnostic comment, basically what theyahve done well and whatthey could do better. Mostof the teachers in the private/grammmars were amazed they may mark regulalry but this mainly consisted of a tick and a single word such as good or excellent or a mark if it was questions. If this went on in my department I would be asking them to explain themselves. I am sure this is not all private and grammar schools and perhaps there are just not very good ones in my local area and it is based on my feelings and observations from a few days. I guess I am trying to say you get good and bad in both sectors. We have some poor trachers in our school and I realy do wish more people would complain so we could getrid of them. If they were teaching my daughter I would be complaining and making thattecahers life hell until they left the school or changed their ways. And that takes me back to my point that parents have the power to change schools if there are enough if them their willing and with the skills to take on the system.

But don't you check Xenia, shoudn't you check?

Are private schools subject to OFSTED? I have heard a lot about bad standards of teaching in private schools. Don't think you actually have to have qualified teacher status to work in one.

Not sure what Xenia means about not marking properly. I work in state sector and always mark properly, as this is subject to checks by Head of Department and Senior management. The whole school has a marking policy. Is she saying that because I work in state sector I don't do my job properly?
Parents would be straight onto the school if we didn't mark properly

Hear hear twinsetandpearls!! Just because you pay for it doesn't mean it is high quality.

Bo that isn;t what she is saying and I don't want to turn this into a lets knock private schools thread as as much as I dislike them they do have some good teachers.

I think that from my observations teaching in a private school can make you quitle lazyas a reflective practioner - not saying the teachers are lazy but because the kids behave well and do the work and achive there is not the pressure to cionstantly improve and plan all singing and ancing lessons and embrace new ideas. I have been on an interview in a private school and been observed teaching a very good lesson to be told that we don;t do that and do I not have a textbook or a worksheet from which the kids could just answer questions.

There was a school quite local to here that was a state primary from quite a deprived area in which parents formed a forum to critise the school, got a lot of publicity and managed to getrid of lots of staff and turn the school around.

Many independent schools are rigorously inspected by ISI . I believe (could be wrong) that those that aren't members of the appropriate organisation to enable this are checked by OFSTED.

I think every parent would like their child along with all children to have an excellent education but my idea of what makes an excellent education would vary from that of parents at a lot of these so called sink schools.
My cousin's daughter attends a very poorly thought of school where the teachers consider the children educated if they can get and hold any job at the age of 16, A Levels etc aren't even a consideration. The expectations of the parents and therefore the children and ultimately then the teachers are a tragedy and there should be a public outcry.

For mnay of the kids I teach I will have done a good job if they can hold down a job at16, thatis not an outcry that is reality.

For other kids I expect so much more.

Often as well the reality of a school and its reputation are very different. My school has an awful reputation thatit does not live up or down to.

sorry my typing is awful, I can't type when I am getting wound up!