Agonising over school choice

[llareggub]

Well, not really. Just can't understand the lengths to which people go to get their precious little darling into the right school.

Unless there is some legitimate need, why won't the local school do? Parent pressure might then drive up quality.

Obviously everyone wants the best for their child but what diference does a good school make to an average/above average child? Is there just a marginal diference?

Parental influence just as important/more important IMO.

It is not to the detriment of my child or anyone else's.

I suppose it's parental choice. A lot of Catholics would say that by my mother and then me not using private or state Catholic schools the children have suffered or someone else might say children in private schools or good state schools suffer because they don't get used to dealing with very rough children with huge problems. Or that's children suffer because they don't go to the local school which is 98% Bengali or whatever.

Many academic private schools (and some grammars for that matter) rely on the kids going to tutors to keep up to speed. They also rely on the scholarships kids to get the grades up (you only need a few brilliant kids in a small class to raise the average). They will also persuade kids to leave if they are not up to scratch.
It shocked me as well when I first heard it but I was told by friends who do tutoring and a couple of private (sorry independent) school teachers.

But not all by any means. My ex husband taught in one and we know a reasonable amount about a lot of the private schools around here. Most of the girls at my daughters' two schools Haberdashers and North London are very bright. NLCS I think a few times has had the best exams in the whole country of any school boarding or day. Very very few leave because they can't keep up.

I have not noticed a huge difference between those girls on scholarships and those there with fee paying parents to be honest but I don't nkow about all round the country. They all seemed univesraloly bright at Newcastle Royal Grammar where my brother went. I am sure Manchester grammar is much the same, Perse Cambridge etc. But second ranking types of private schools that may be so. If they need tutoring they probably aren't at the right school unless it's a temporary slight weakness in one subject may be.

xenis, why do you never go on light hearted threads?

One point I've never got, is that many parents insist on state schooling on grounds of socialisation and being in a wide mix of society. I don't get this, what do they think school is - a social club??? Surely that's what the Brownies (etc) is for?

What is this mix which is wanted anyway. Is it to mix with people with a lower IQ or those from a different social background or is it culture and religion?

Not every child who goes to an independent school has the confidence to mix easily with other people. I went to an independent school, and while I was and am academically confident, in other ways I'm much less so. In particular I find it difficult sometimes dealing with people who are much less academic than I am (lower IQ, possibly, as some might say, though IQ is a bit of a dodgy measure) - I completely disagree that private education gives people a sort of general all-purpose confidence that lets them get on well with anyone and everyone. Maybe they might think they're succeeding at getting on well with people, but a lack of experience with people from very different backgrounds can be a real handicap. It can be too easy to see people from those other backgrounds as almost of another species - not in the sense of being inferior (I never got that message from my private education, I will say that), but simply in the sense of being unknown (a practical failing). It's a handicap I don't intend my kids to have, and I don't think it's necessary. My best friend was state educated and got a first in a subject I could only manage a 2:2 in despite having had, in theory, all the advantages of a private education. It also doesn't necessarily teach you to work well independently - it didn't in my case. Basically there are too many variables and no one can generalise from the experience of one person's children - I wouldn't generalise from my own experience either, but I would say my own experience shows that private education isn't always the best. Not that I think it's evil - far from it, I know my parents believed they were doing the best for me, and I don't think they did anything wrong in sending me where they did, it just had some definite disadvantages as well as advantages.

Depends on your personality too. Not all my children are confident, even the twins are hugely different. But I do think if you put in a room 20 girls from St Paul's and 20 girls from an average comp and those first girls would be more self confident. My daughter at university said that was one of the things she noticed with the state school pupils in her tutorial groups - they don't seem to have opinions or views or argue points (but of course she might just have been unlucky with that group).

Mixing with other people I don't understand. Children at private schools also live normal lives. They mix with all kinds of people in their spare time. I never have trouble talking to anyone at all wherever they're from.

But I haven't particularly observed that every person who went to state school also has fantastic social skills? Some do, as indeed some private school graduates do.

I find it incredibly frustrating that my state school choice appears to be a) go to church and pray that I get into a church school; b) hope the dcs get into a grammar school or c) that the police presence at the start and end of each school day outside our nearest schools is enough to deter some of the violence. (Local front page this week shows that replica bullets are being traded in one of the junior schools - ok they're replicas and I'm sure it was harmless enough).

I think that that is is great that so many MNers found that either their own state experience was fine so they'll go down that route, or they want their children's social mix broadened, but are you all really sending your children to schools patrolled by police? And are you happy about that?

It is difficult to know how to read these threads at times - I am starting to feel that South London is in a different zone to other places in the UK.

Yes, I think London is very very different, LadyM.

I didn't mention social skills or school being a social club. But since it's come up, obviously school is an incredibly social place.

London is different which is why people often move out of it or go private unless they are Blair and Cameron and can't for political reasons and then they find God which is quite convenient.

Blair didn't suddenly find God when it came to his children's schooling - didn't Cherie go to catholic schools back in Liverpool. Church of England schools don't normally insist on church attendance apart from 10% the rest are catchment the church link is historical.

Are private school pupils self-confident or just arrogant and sometimes downright rude.

Certainly some of the parents are the latter

I think they're more confident.
You're right about Blair. His wife is a Catholic although I don't know many QCs who send children to state schools... sacrificed on the altar of their parents' politics.

Haven't read all this thread, but

I have taught in very bad schools
I have taught in average schools
I have taught in good schools

Judging by what I have seen and dealt with in the classrooom, I would send my dc to best school I could. No contest at all.

That is why I live in an area with high house prices to get dc into a good school.

In some schools it is just a case of survival, I want my dc to learn

I think most parents do.
As for rudeness I don't think you can generalise about parents at state and private schools. I do tend to find a difference between the 18 - 20 year old friends of my chidlren. Those from good private schools will look me in the eye and shake my hand and call me Mrs X. Those from state schools have none of those basic skills or the confidence to know when I am there in my house it's the right thing to do to introduce themselves etc.

In answer to the op, I can give you a very strong reason why a good school was much better for my son than poor school. He went to both and ended up at the 'good' school. A move that may well have changed the course of his entire school life and beyond.

When my ds1 was 7 (in year 3) he was at a large, state primary - didn't do well in ofsted league tables, lots of temporary teachers, big classes, but it was very local. That's why we moved him there.

My son was a handful - always had been. Lots of low level disruption - not listening, very poor concentration, distracting other children, wandering round the classroom etc. Teachers said he was bright but was performing far below his ablilty. He was at one point put in the remedial catch up class for reading and writing. He had been on the school's SEN register for his behaviour, from the end of year 1. In year 3, was just about to move onto the next level of seriousness - ie the SEN teacher thought his behaviour was getting worse. I was at the point of accepting that my son had special needs, needed diagnosis and was beyond the help of his teachers. My son was picking up this idea, too and I could see he believed that behaving 'normally' was beyond him.

The school was big, (3 classes per year group). The playground was full of little boy gangs - my son was involved in countless incidents of hitting and kicking. He was often in classes of 40 or more children with a variety of different teachers, as there was a staffing problem and classes were spilt into larger groups.

My son was on the waiting list for a small, local church school - still followoing the same national curriculum. The school had been rated by Ofsted as 'outstanding' ie amongst the top 5% of primary schools in the country. A place suddenly came up for him in year 3.

When he moved his new teachers assessed him. Within a few weeks they called me into the office to tell me that my son was definitely not special needs. They were not putting him on their SEN register. They told me he was quite capable of good behaviour but has been badly taught. He was put in all the middle to low sets.

It would be untrue to say his behaviour suddenly and magically improved. It was a long hard battle in year 3/4 but slowly things improved. By year 4 he was a total Harry Potter fan, avidly reading the books to himself. He was also moving up the ability sets. In year 6 he was in all the top sets and passed his 11+, one of 7 children in his form of 24 pupils.

I was in touch with parents from his old form at the other primary school. AFAIK, none of his class passed the 11+ - remember, these were children placed in higher ability sets than my son.

In our area, the choice of secondary schools is very difficult. If you pass the Bexley 11+ you can get to a grammar school (in the next borough) if not, the secondary schools are all way below the national avarage.

I do not know how my son my would have coped with a secondary school here - his primary headmaster strongly advised me not to put him in one of them. I know of other children, however, who are doing very well. My son likes his school as well. And as 100% of the children got grades A - C for GCSE, there's a good chance he will come out of school with good basic qualifications, at least. The chances of this happening at the local secondary school is much smaller.

When he was at his first primary school, I would never have thought he would have got to a grammar school and I totally believe he would not be there if he hadn't changed primary schools when he did.

I always, always think of you guys when I see people discussing this POV. I think only a minority of potentially academically able children, especially boys, will have all that it takes to do well in any type of post 11 environment. And that as you say, what happens between 5 and 11 can make all the difference.

HI Marina - yes, I agree.

(ps did you get the DVD?)

Posted? Not this morning, no...

Oh, I LOVE going on school trips! They are fun, and it's so interesting, IMO getting to know your child's classmates and seeing how they all are getting on and what they actually do. The school trip to the National Gallery and Horseguard's Parade (plus a coffe in St James's park) with ds's reception class was really enjoyable. And the other parents on the trip were lovely, interesting people too. Cannot see that as a disadvantage at all. I agree that in general private school pupils have a sort of polish, but they are such a tiny, rarified group of children (what, 5% of the population?) that you can't say that it is just the education that has given them that polish. They tend to come from pretty high earning, privileged backgrounds where education is highly valued and the children are expected to have high aspirations. You get those children in state schools too, of course, but you can't expect them to be in the same proportion.
My stepdaughter goes to a private school and has beautiful manners, but she really isn't noticeably different in speech and manner to my goddaughter who is a couple of years younger and goes to a state secondary.

And I certainly think a good school makes a big difference! Of course it does. Look at Katymac's recent posts about her daughter, a story that sounds incredibly similar to yours, Tigermoth.

Look in the hall now!