Agonising over school choice

[llareggub]

Well, not really. Just can't understand the lengths to which people go to get their precious little darling into the right school.

Unless there is some legitimate need, why won't the local school do? Parent pressure might then drive up quality.

Obviously everyone wants the best for their child but what diference does a good school make to an average/above average child? Is there just a marginal diference?

Parental influence just as important/more important IMO.

I agree with you. Did I mean received pronunciation then? You know what I mean. Speaking like I do without much or any accent, that's all. It has an effect on people and how they treat you. Obviously you don't want to sound ultra weird like the Queen though.. there's a balance in getting it just right (thinking of dreadful liverpool accent man on train today... oh dear)... I particularly don't like the South African one either, that hard Afrikaans type which makes me think of endemic racism.

It's easy and fun to experiment. Dress one way and speak one way and do something - order, arrange or whatever. Then change clothes and accent and try again. Fun differences. Knowledge of those things is power and anyone can do it.

Parents do make a difference to the school, so many of our kids are being failed at the school I teach in because the school is not being held to asccount by the parents. In my school there a handful of parents that do complain if books are not marked, lessons are not taught properly and there kids lessons are distrupted by other pupils or the constant stream of supply teachers. IN the age of oftsed reports and the media holding schools to ransom with the threats of negative press clued up parents know that they ahve a hold over headteachers and governers and LEAs and can get a quality education for their child.

I have worked in schools with a lot of parental support filed with kids whose parents show an interest in their child's education and they are very different places from schools where parents are never in.

I will send my daughter to a state sector school, I would if she wanted send her to the school I teach in with its 18% A-C record as I know thatI would insist on my daughter receiving a quality education and t would happen and she would succed in life.

Yes we have choices in life for example buying a private jet if we had one but should we take choices that mean others suffer. BY buying a private jet it does naot mean that British Airways flights are more likey to fail getting across the atlantic, however by choosing to opt out of the state ssystem or your local school you are affecting the chance of other kids ahving a suucessful education.

My local catchment school is a very good school on paper and does have a very good reputation on the whole. It is also very full. So, in some ways by me opting out of the state system there I have actually enabled another child to have that place and gain the "better" education.

I think using the private sector is no worse than moving house, or even started to go to church, etc. to get into the right state school.

I feel a bit guilty as it appears I was the OP and then disappeared. I didn't - I've lurked.

Someone suggested that I either have good schools locally or a child that that hasn't started school yet. The latter is true and I don't know enough yet about the local schools to judge.

I went to a bog standard comp and a decent primary. I have an average job and often wonder what would have happened if I'd received decent career advice and guidance regarding university. My parents did not go to university so little guidance from them. I do remember the public school students at university and did envy their polish.

Opting out of the public sector schools is a huge gift richer parents give to this nation for which they should be congratulated. They save so very much money by doing so and ought to get that back to off set against the private sector fees.

I agree I did not mean to single out choosing the private sector as an evil I think they are all as bad, although I understand why parents want faith schools but it frustrates me when parents have to use faith schools to get a good education rather than it being a religiously motivated decision.

I do think however thatmany people who use the private sector have the most power and ability to transform the state sector and therefore they should really use it.

I don't actually agree with getting tax relief on my school fees. It is my choice to use private education and I hope I will get benefits in otheer ways. I think we school with nursery costs, but not schooling.

Opting out of the public sector schools is a huge gift richer parents give to this nation for which they should be congratulated.

So when parents choose to send their kids to private schools it is an actof kindness and charity to free up money for all the poor grubby children.

No it is not and I can say that as I looked at sending my own daughter to a private school before teaching in a state "sink" school opened my eyes to what parental "choice" does to the kids who need the benefits of a good education more than most as they have no other benefits, no old boys network to help them up the ladder and the wrong accent.

twinsetandpearls, I am stunned by your faith in your ability as an ordinary parent to change your child's school. How many hours a week do you need to dedicate to complaining about poor marking of homework in order to ensure it gets done? And what on earth do you do about teachers who can't handle classroom discipline properly or don't know their subject that well, or don't teach it very well. (Not being sarky here - I realise I may be coming across that way but I'd actually welcome some advice and tips. I imagine others would, too.)

Hallgerda - I believe twinsetandpearls is a state school teacher working in a lower achieving, in terms of exam grades at least, school.

I have worked in both a very high achieving school and a very low achieving special measures school. Parental involvment differences were very apparant. In the SM school parental involvment was very low all round. There were some that made the effort, but not enough to make an overall difference TBH.

llareggub - you make a valid point about absolutely shocking careers advice (well, that's my words) when you and I were at school. It was appalling and I got no decent advice about university courses either (as someone with no parents to advise).

I'll find out if they've improved any when my dds are at high school but at least I know I can give them good advice too.

I think private schools will always exist and I think there's a place for them.

I don't believe in the recent (and not so recent) divisions amongst state schools such as specialist academies, grammar, faith etc.

Hpefully the level of careers advice will be improving greatly in coming years. IAG provision is going through a lot of changes right now which should mean people, not just children in schools, have access to far more informated and releavnt advice and guidance. regards life choices.

Hulababy, it was the third paragraph of twinsetandpearls's post of 23:24:11 yesterday I was commenting on. I can see that lots of parents making the same comments might possibly make a difference, but if you are one of a very small number it's pretty hopeless

There seems to be a bit of an assumption here that some schools do better because the parents make a fuss and the schools then act on the problems. So if your child's school isn't doing very well for your child it's your own fault for not making enough fuss.

I think it's a bit more likely that many schools with good reputations react when there is some danger of their losing that advantage (and the intake that goes with it), while there is no such incentive on the "sink" schools.

No, I don't send the children to private schools as an act of charity to free up places and save Government money but that is a benefit which is not often written about for the country. Private school parents pay twice in a sense. If it costs £5k a year overall for state school pupils 13 x 5 children x £5k = is £325,000 I have in effect donated to poorer parents.

You might say the state system has been damaged however by my clever middle class children not charing class rooms with others who benefit from their mere presence which is another argument again.

If we know good exam results, being amongst other achievers and a good accent help children in huge ways then I can't see unless you're very left wing if you have the money you wouldn't pick a good private school.

Parental involvement is interesting. Schools where it's hard to get parents to turn up for parents' evenings compared with those where most of the parents turn up must be a good indicator of how much the parents support the education of their children. In the private sector in a sense you pay not to have to be involved, not to have to do what you're paying for and you want some parents kept out of the school and let the school which you trust get on with it.

I don't want my children solely to be among achievers. I want them to be among a mix. I want them to feel a part of the society they live in. I believe the mix is one of the most important things.

(And I know some private school teachers and the parents do want to be 'not involved', not by a long chalk. And I think you know that, xenia)

Yes, I pay so as not to have to be there hearing reading in class, going on trips, doing the job of teachers in part although I think you will find more parents at private schools do turn up for parents' evenings, concerts etc than in the worst state schools. (Boarding schools I am leaving out of this)

I've never looked at a piece of GCSE course work for example and don't want to although I think I'm reasonably well involved with the children overall.

Social mix... my children can mix with anyone. I don't think going to a private school makes you unable to do that. In fact I think it means you can mix with confidence with all types of people better than if you go to a state school. It is the confidence and social skills in part that you pay for.

I have thought it important my children are in a class with children with a high IQ who work hard because a lot of children are influenced by those around them particularly in teenage years and the quality of debate in class (or indeed over dinner) varies depending on how clever are the people you're with. It's fun to spark ideas off others but if the others never get the point because you have a truly comprehensive class then learning is not so good.

By Xenia "Opting out of the public sector schools is a huge gift richer parents give to this nation for which they should be congratulated. They save so very much money by doing so and ought to get that back to off set against the private sector fees."

What a load of nonsense you spout at times!! No one forced you to educate privately - I fail to see why you should be 'congratulated' on that. One of my best friends has no children - maybe she should be repaid the taxes that would have gone on education, should she have had a family.

I quite liked that line.... Thinking Blair should invite me to No 10 to give me a fake £325,000 cheque and certificate of thanks for what I've saved the nation plus generating 5 children who will contribute better to the nation and its taxes than if they'd gone to state schools.

Xenia - the parental non-involvment I foind very different to my, albeit brief, experience of private school. OK, DD only started this acadeic year but so far we have had a huge amount of involvement! What with parent's evening, class meals out, open days (2 so far), easter parade coming up, Christmas concert, Christmas play, parent's ball next month.....all us being involved and supprorting the school. We also read with DD every night, as well as her reading at school daily and do homework at holidays. We speak with the teacher almost every day - normally DH when he takes her in a morning. I can'e see the level of involvement in DD's education changing TBH - it is encouraged throughout the school!

Why would a parent not want to be involved and know what their child was doing - I would strongly advocate pupils getting parents to proof read courseowrk and essays, for example. Having a fresh pair of eyes go over a piece of work is ideal and good for parents to do with their older child. Lots of ways I could explain.

Yes Hula, but presumably you're not having to go into school and help other kids read? Or help them get changes for PE, washing up after painting etc as some parent helpers do in the state school.

I guess I don't understand twinsetandpearls assumption that parents who opt for private school are somehow robbing the state sector of their involvement - for the majority of such parents their involvement starts and stops with their own children. Many parents are working and wouldn't be available to help out in the classroom even it were allowed/encouraged (it isn't at ours). So I'm not sure what benefit those parents would be to a state school? I also see many parents at state schools who go to great lengths to ensure that their own children are well catered for despite any failing in the school (eg by tutoring, Kumon maths, extra-curricular activities), but again how does this help the children of the parents who don't care?

If the reason that some children fail in school (and potentially disrupt and cause others to fail/underachieve) is due to inadequate parenting, then how should we as a society respond to that? Especially as it only takes one or two disruptive children to change the dynamics of the class.

No I don't. Although I actually wouldn't mind going in and helping out. The state school DD would have been in doesn't have parent helpers AFAIK (know parents with children there). We are lucky that there are only 15 children in the class with a FT teacher and FT teaching assistant, and they have specialist teachers for things like art, music and ballet - giving the class teacher more time to prep things, etc. without the class there. So no, we don't have to do this - this is what I am paying for I guess though.

I fully agree that it takes just a very small minority of children to misbehave and spoil education for the rest of a class. Been there School leadership and they way deal things is most telling for a school. Most parental involvment is about ensuring your own child gets benefit IME.

xenia, you are a wag!

"I pay so as not to have to be there hearing reading in class, going on trips, doing the job of teachers in part"

Goodness, I don't do any of that and I don't pay for the privilege. Parent helpers are encouraged though, if they are so inclined.

"I've never looked at a piece of GCSE course work for example and don't want to"

I have similar feelings. But don't see how private or state makes a difference on that score.

I suppose I just meant some state schools over rely on middle class parents helping out in a away private schools don't. But I think and I haven't said so below, that one of the things I've liked about the private schools was the involvement, even if it were just sipping champagnes on lovely lawns by lakes etc.

Involvement is an issue and an interesting one. Apparently one reason the health service does reasonably well is middle class people accept it and use it. In countries where hardly anyone with money does use public health systems they suffer (rather than financially gain - despite my point about fees etc below).

So children with bad parenting may well benefit from being educated with those who have good parenting and some parents who are altruistic think it's great their children can pay that philanthropic role even if that is to the detriment of their own child. I think that's sacrificing your own child for the greater good and you'd be better hot footing it to a leafy suburb to educate your children with other well brought up ones in the state or private sector.