http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/13/grammar-pupils-progressing-faster-than-their-peers-in-non-select/

[sandyholme]

I am pleased that finally there is a piece of evidence highlighting that grammar schools do improve performance for middle ability pupils.

All the evidence given on these threads has been to continually state the case for Comprehensive education.

Noblegiraffe, you are right that the results are expected. That's why a great deal of parents try to get their kids in grammar schools, super selective ones if possible.

2StripedSocks Interesting that you demand everyone else provide you with proof to support their claims but refuse to do so yourself.

Rather than dwelling on the top 20%, what about the next 20% - the top end of those that fail to get into grammar? This cohort may be aiming for maybe 5A/As rather than 10 As/As. Where do they get the best results? Comp or Sec Mod?

2StripedSocks perhaps you can provide a link to the report that states that Grammar schools are doing enough to support the most able students?

That report also points out that Kent is one of the worst areas for getting disadvantaged students into top universities.

In the interests of finding areas of agreement this is a very interesting article

schoolsweek.co.uk/lets-subvert-the-centres-of-excellence-policy/

If groups of schools could find ways of bringing together their most able students in particular subjects this ought to be a way of enhancing the education of the most able whilst avoiding some of the disadvantages of grammar/secondary modern split.I don't know how practical it would be for timetabling.

GRAMMAR SCHOOLS WORK
um no
^schoolsweek.co.uk/epi-grammar-schools-report-the-7-key-findings/^
SOURCE PLEASE
OK
^epi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Grammar-schools-and-social-mobility_.pdf^

They fail every group of pupils
high / middle / low achievers
they cost more
they are a waste of time and effort

OK, Grammar schools come in ....
one becomes the grammar, others become the Secondary Moderns

here is a list of schools that serve one town ... please allocate them to the correct box

Westgate (Winchester)
Kings (Winchester)
Henry Heaufort (Winchester)

or as another option

Mountbatten (Romsey)
Romsey (Romsey)

or ... now it gets fun

Priestlands (Lymington)
Priestlands (Lymington)
yup there is only one school in a 6 mile radius

shall I go on ??

2striped
My kids are bright
DD got 3 x A* and 10 x A
DS got 4 x A*, 7 x A and 1 x B
A grammar school would have improved them by an average of 1/3 grade per subject (as per the data sourced research)
how exactly would that have helped ?
especially as DS B in Eng Lit was a miracle of my bullying over his hatred of the subject

What difference would my kids have had from a grammar
other that a gross any systematic narrowing of their understanding of society
which has led to so much shit decision making by selective school educated civil servants and politicians

n measuring the gap between disadvantaged children and the rest, government, researchers and
academics tend to use eligibility for free school meals as a proxy for disadvantage. There is
widespread agreement that this is an imperfect measure because it is a binary measure that relies
on whether or not parents claim certain income benefits (although the creation of ‘Ever-6’ has
Report60, the attainment of a
pupil eligible for free school meals can vary significantly depending on the length of time for which
he or she has been eligible. So children eligible for free school meals are not a homogenous group.

This could have been written by me in my previous posts !

Well at least you can't call grammar schools 'RACIST', the anti group would use that chestnut if they could as demonstrated by the success of Asian students in attending grammar schools.

At 92.5% GCSE Maths/English it can also be seen that FSM pupils are only 5% down from the 97% of the overall figure . This is close to parity , whereas bright FSM children in non selective schools are much further than 5% below on GCSE Maths/English attainment.

Trafford selects a higher % '46%' than anywhere yet has the best non selective schools what does that tell you !

The Comprehensive crew like to talk about 'kent' because it is probably the worst example of selective education. The problems in their system is down to them , not the concept of selective education. Southend has good non selective schools has does Bucks , Wirral has good non selective schools , Trafford has outstanding non selective schools. The anti group like to talk about Kent and on occasion Linconshire because it plays in to their ideas. They come up with a number of 'excuses' about the successful selective areas.

Finally the report has made no mention of whether selective education fails it is for people to draw their own conclusions.

sandyholme Trafford selects a higher % '46%

I'm impressed that 46% of all secondary school DCs living in Trafford attend Grammar schools. That means DCs have almost a 50/50 chance of getting a place.

Do parents in Trafford agree that the non selective schools are amongst the best in the country and if so are they basing it on value add rather than top level GCSE grades?

Southend has good non selective schools has does Bucks

The Bucks parents I know think that some of the sec.mods are good because a fair number of grammar school places go to DCs from outside the area. This results in a fair number of local bright Bucks DCs getting allocated the sec. mods.

Sandy
I know that you think that Trafford is the bees knees.
DH works in most of the LEAs in the country.
It ain't.
Once you knock out the cross border traffic (as was done by OfQual a couple of years back and linked by me till I got an ulcer)
Trafford is just a normal LEA at one end of the game of the system
it has no magic bullet, just good bus routes

Grammars do not work
because
they select in a random tutorable manner
they cost an effing fortune
they reduce pupil mobility

they reduce teacher mobility

they are set up for an employment scenario that ceased to exist 40 years ago

Sandy, where is your evidence that grammars cost a fortune? DD's grammar gets less than most schools per pupil so if anything they are a bargain.

You have got me confused with someone else!

I know some grammar schools are 'Skint' due to the way they are funded.

Talkin posted they cost a fortune ( Talkin have you changed the spelling of your name I thought you were Talkinpeace)

PettsI said that grammars cost a fortune
for the simple reason that they are smaller and thus have much higher cost per head
at a comp EVERYTHING incl SEN is covered for the £4 k per pupil
grammars do not bother about SEN because they exclude

sandy
I change my spelling about once a month - always recongnisable, always me, but nadgers the Daily Heil doing advanced search ;-)

Sorry Sandy mixing you up. To Talk, My DD's grammar has SEN provision. Surprise surprise children with dyslexia and other learning challenges get into grammar too. DD's school is larger than some of the Comps, smaller than others, it is a vast overstatement to say a grammar costs more than a comprehensive. In my experience they are often less funded than other nearby schools but that is just my analysis of the accounts and funding statements of the eight grammars and six comprehensives we looked at when considering schools for DD, this was just last year, where is your analysis taken from?

So how exactly is Kent's system of selection flawed? Given that Kent has had a stable system of selecting the top 25% ish for grammar school education since god knows when surely it is ideally placed to demonstrate how well the system works? (Or not)
And I really don't care what kind of education is best for the brightest children - I want to know what system provides the best education for all children.
Well,I do care - but still think that a system which does well for one group at the expense of another is a flawed system,so the only argument which would convince me to support grammar school type selection would be that ALL children get a better education under that system.

Petts. My DS + DDs grammar schools are facing a huge funding crisis .

There is a distinct possibility that the schools will struggle to fund the full curriculum as it stands in the near future !

The grammar schools that don't have an 'old boys network' that provides funding are often the poorest schools in the state system. They are often the schools using the 15 year old text books held together by children having to cover them.

They don't have all the fancy I pads and whiteboard technology etc.

Petts
A grammar's SEN provision is gilding the lily . The kids with SEN are not at that school - as borne out, ad nauseam by the Dfe Tables

infinite
the point is that overall Kent (the only true grammar County, because of its geography) does no better than equivalent comp counties
so, despite the millions spent by Kent parents on prep schools and tutors
once they get to A level, the lazy arse Hampshire Comp kids are in the same place with much less stress and more overseas holidays ;-)