People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

Testing a child at 11 doesn't brand them a failure, its caused by people telling them, if they don't pass that test they are failures. DC fail lots of tests in life (at least mine has) sporting, musical, academic, practical, at home, in school, in clubs, at competitions and yet parents are able to convince them they are not failures because they are NOT.

"How does that impact negatively on other parents"

It doesn't. It's not about parents, it's about children.

Herding children into educational and social ghettoes (which is the end result of expanding the role of selection in schooling) appears to have a negative effect on overall educational outcomes, impacting most negatively on the children who are lower achievers. That's what the research says anyway.

Of course most people who are pro-grammar are of the 'nimby, I'm all right Jack, there's no such thing as society' mindset so that argument probably doesn't cut much ice with them.

Mathmum - you have repeatedly argued on threads that a grammar school education is life changing.

Now you say it doesn't matter if children fail the 11+.

It clearly matters HUGELY to you and your children.

But apparently it's a trivial issue and indicates nothing of any importance to the child.

Testing a child at 11 doesn't brand them a failure, its caused by people telling them, if they don't pass that test they are failures.

Uhuh, tell them they're not a failure as they get shunted off to the school for people who didn't pass.

If I send my bright kids to a failing sink comp miles away rather than try for the grammar on our doorstep how does that benefit of society? How does that action help my kids or other children?

Fundamentally, I want great nearby schools for all and grammars.

In an area of Brum where the grammars give 20-25 places to FSM?

I was intrigued so I looked up the Birmingham grammars (why are they mostly called King Edward VI???). While some of them do have a higher proportion of PP kids than other grammars, they are far less than the local population, so poor kids are still not fairly represented.
E.g. Handsworth Grammar School:
Eligible for free school meals: 12.4% (low)
Local child deprivation rate: 34.0% (4km radius)

www.schooldash.com/school/103549/

Then I saw that this school was only Ofsted Good. Looking at the Ofsted report this is because they don't stretch the most able.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/index.php?q=filedownloading/&id=2186589&type=1&refer=0

Don't want to derail this thread but find it hard to keep quiet when someone spouts nonsense.

I've had a look, and I'm pretty sure we're actually still in the EU, enjoying the benefits that being in the EU brings.
Brexit is the PROCESS of exiting and that started the day after we voted to leave. Armageddon was to commence as soon as the result was announced. Seems project fear has moved to education.

And no one has yet figured out how we can Brexit without fucking up the country That's why there is a 2 year process to determine that and all the evidence is now showing that the country will do just fine in the world. Just like our education can be world beating when we stop dragging everyone to the middle and allow everyone to be stretched.

Fundamentally, I want great nearby schools for all and grammars.

I cannot fathom why you would need to add those words on the end.

Brexit is the PROCESS of exiting

Is it now? Is that how it has been redefined to explain the complete lack of progress towards an actual exit? Hilarious.

"and all the evidence is now showing that the country will do just fine in the world."

What all the evidence?

Express reader by any chance?

middleoftheroad

"If I send my bright kids to a failing sink comp miles away rather than try for the grammar on our doorstep how does that benefit of society? How does that action help my kids or other children?"

This thread is about the government's proposed policies to increase the number of grammar schools in the UK, and therefore about the WHOLE education system and ALL the children who use it. Not just your children. In other words: "it's not all about you".

MIni. Being Autistic and undiagnosed (but obvious) until the age of 37 I think i have had and come through a far few issues myself !.

OK my mother was head of English at a girls grammar, my Uncle was a wealthy businessman and all my family have been to 'University' (apart from me , OU for me).

But what do you think it has been like for me living in the world when inheriting just about every known symptom of HFA !

No one is saying that people should deliberately send their kids to a 'sink school'. Obviously we all want what's best for our own children.

But education policy should be decided by what is best for all children. Gove wanted a grammar school education for all. I'm not sure why Theresa May is willing to settle for so much less.

"Testing a child at 11 doesn't brand them a failure, its caused by people telling them, if they don't pass that test they are failures. DC fail lots of tests in life (at least mine has) sporting, musical, academic, practical, at home, in school, in clubs, at competitions and yet parents are able to convince them they are not failures because they are NOT."

Can you think of a single other test taken by a 10 year old that has a significant impact on their lives, and which they can't have another go at? Come to that, I can't think of many life changing exams anyone of any age does that they can't have another go at........

A comprehensive is a school which caters to children of all abilities.

If a school is open to all and its intake reflects the demographic of the area from which it draws its student body then it is a comprehensive.

Before my dc's school was allowed to be partially selective it had a student intake which could in no way be described as 'comprehensive' or representative of its catchment. In fact it was a dumping ground for children excluded from other schools. Partial selection allowed the school to become a comprehensive. Actually, the school's intake still doesn't reflect its catchment, surrounded as it is by houses costing millions, but then it's only 200 yards away from a massive and very successful private school, so nobody really expects it to.

" think wanting our children catered for properly in their secondary education in a school that suits them and meets our expectations as parents isn't a lot to ask for."

But why does it have to be in a separate school??????

The interesting information from that Huffington poll is that 37% of Mumsnet are pro Grammar school...

That is highly 'pleasing' considering their are only three of us on here that are prepared to put our heads above the parapet and swear allegiance to the grammar school system.

Considering the institutional 'metropolitan' left wing bias of this site, i think that means in the outside , there is a sizeable number of grammar school supporters .

The support for new grammar schools is a strong (if not stronger) among the Working Class as the Middle Class.

It is only the metropolitan liberals , Labour MPs and the 'Chipping Norton' set who for their very own reasons and think they can tell people what they want are opposed.

noble, a bit of back tracking, but what is high attainer?
My ds is really good at maths, but he got working at greater depth for all the core subjects.
I thought these kids are called high attainers?

Oh right. Away from the yobs then.

Incidentally, why do high ability kids have to work incredibly hard and do loads of homework to get decent GCSEs?

Polling evidence:

d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/018joah9t6/TimesResults_160914_GrammarSchools_EnglandOnly_Website.pdf

34% of people want new grammars built. Amongst the 18-50 year olds (most likely group to have school age children) that falls to 26%.

And by the way, I'm rather puzzled as to why continually telling people how much better children will do in grammars is a persuasive argument? Given that 80% of us won't have children in these amazing schools telling us how its the 20% who will be grabbing all the great university places and great jobs in the future isn't really going to convince us is it?

irvine a high attainer (DfE definition) is a child who gets level 5 or above at KS2 SATs. Expected progress would be to grades A* to B at GCSE at 16.

I think wanting our children catered for properly in their secondary education in a school that suits them and meets our expectations as parents isn't a lot to ask for.

Absolutely. Which is why most parents prefer comprehensives to secondary moderns.

striped as you are a grammar fan, would you send your DC to the grammar in Birmingham that is 'only' Good and Ofsted said that they failed to stretch the most able?