People who are in favour of grammar schools....

[BertrandRussell]

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 16:35:43 I am particularly keen that bright children with SEN that have been let down for generations get the chance to shine!

What this got to do with selective schools?

I believe a 40% selective system would have enough scope and space for bright SEN students. They have been abandoned for to long have been seen as just not being bright due to the difficulties of understanding SEN.

In the right environments Dyslexic/Dyspraxic students will shine far greater than your average student

What about the less academically able children with SEN?

There is an argument for grammar schools for the top 5%. A grammar school for the 'top' 40% is just daft.

"I am particularly keen that bright children with SEN that have been let down for generations get the chance to shine!"

They don't need grammar schools for that, they just need appropriately qualified and skilled teachers and enough 1 to 1 support.

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 16:54:00 I believe a 40% selective system would have enough scope and space for bright SEN students.

Er, don't you mean the 40% would allow for those DCs with SEN who are lucky enough to pass one test that labels them as being in the top 40%? I'm assuming you know of a test that is reliable enough to do this?

Why do you keep banging on about 40%. What about the DCs in the top 41% or 42%?

BertrandRussell Tue 20-Sep-16 17:01:03 There is an argument for grammar schools for the top 5%. A grammar school for the 'top' 40% is just daft

Wouldn't this just be one of those Comps. that politicians choose for their DCs?

I would not be surprised if Meopham actually ends up having a cohort that is in the top 40% if and when it becomes a grammar school !

Trafford's grammars take the top '40%' of the school population as does Northern Ireland Wirral typically takes 30-35% !

The idea of grammar schools taking 40% is quite established and noticeably in areas that don't tend to have the 'sink' schools described by Bertrand !

minifingerz Tue 20-Sep-16 17:01:07 They don't need grammar schools for that, they just need appropriately qualified and skilled teachers and enough 1 to 1 support.

Unfortunately, while money is being pumped into providing selective schools for the privileged few, funding is unlikely to be forthcoming for providing better support for the bright SEN children who don't pass the 11 plus.

"Wouldn't this just be one of those Comps. that politicians choose for their DCs?"

Well, not if it has children with SEN on the roll!

Sandy. I never have and never will use the expression "sink school".

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 17:08:00 Trafford's grammars take the top '40%' of the school population ... Wirral typically takes 30-35%

Can I just ask where you got these figures from?

www.infotrafford.org.uk/lab/portfolio/schoolcohortresidency

This is a chart showing the numbers of children going to grammar schools in Trafford overall it is 40% of the cohort !

People keep asserting that the only schools which have halfway decent results are surrounded by mansions and have zero PP students
Not everyone who can't afford a massive mortgage is a PP student.
This isn't about half decent schools, its about being able to cater for children who are highly academic.

Because of course the education system should be based entirely around the needs/wants of the most able.............
No one is advocating that. A lot of effort is put into PP children, comps are designed for the 'average' pupil but the top academics are often let down. This is about challenging and stretching ALL our children not making everyone equal in the middle like Finland does.

What makes you think that houses close to grammar schools don't carry a premium?
Why would it matter if it did because the school will be selecting on academic standards not house price.

they actually mean pupils who meet a fairly arbitrary total on a test which favours the tutored

NOPE

^St Christopher’s in Canterbury is an £8,400-a-year 11+ exam factory and
boasted of a 94% pass rate in last year’s grammar school qualification exams. Turns out they were lying and actually had a pass rate of 53% and a few passing on appeal.^

Money well spent?

mathsmum314 Tue 20-Sep-16 17:29:46 Why would it matter if it did because the school will be selecting on academic standards not house price.

If the school is oversubscried distance will often be a factor in the allocation of a place. In Bucks they use a qualifying mark and then places are allocated by distance.

Actually Trafford had 15,488 pupils in its Secondary Schools in 2014
7,450 pupils in its 6 grammar schools and 8,038 pupils in its non selective schools a breakdown of 48.1% Grammar 51.9% High School .

Take away 'Grammar' school Tourism of 8% still leaves around 40% of Trafford students getting a grammar school education.

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 17:24:30 www.infotrafford.org.uk/lab/portfolio/schoolcohortresidency

This is a chart showing the numbers of children going to grammar schools in Trafford overall it is 40% of the cohort !

I can't see any reference to the 40%. Is it actually mentioned or did you calculate it yourself?

Where did you get the figure for the Wirral?

MumTryingHerBest, Considering TM has said she wants to end wealth selection, I would expect admissions based on 11 + score – highest score downwards until all places are filled.

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 17:37:51 'Grammar' school Tourism of 8% still leaves around 40% of Trafford students getting a grammar school education.

Where did the 8% for Out of Borough come from?

The 8% is an 'educated' estimate bearing in mind Trafford Schools get a lot of Educational Tourists from Manchester go to Stretford Urmstom Grammars Altrincham grammar Tourists come from Cheshire East/ Warrington .

I got the figures for Trafford's school population from the 2014 Dept of Education Performance Tables (as the 2015 ones are hard to use)

I also remember someone telling me that Trafford sent 40% of its pupils to Grammar and was one the most 'inclusive' selective systems. (that is borne out by the 48% figure)

Wirral back to the calculation board !

mathsmum314 Tue 20-Sep-16 17:41:05 MumTryingHerBest, Considering TM has said she wants to end wealth selection, I would expect admissions based on 11 + score – highest score downwards until all places are filled.

So what do you do if you have 20 DCs on the same score?

Schools which select on 11+ score top down end up chock full of wealthy kids which was apparently the thing to be avoided.

So what do you do if you have 20 DCs on the same score?

Does it really matter, the chances of that happening is small, and would affect a very small number of families. Have a tie breaker question, lottery, interview, age, squeeze them in etc etc and the others go top of waiting list.

sandyholme Tue 20-Sep-16 17:52:16 The 8% is an 'educated' estimate

The Chord diagram has it at 14.6%

Well there you go then!

Wirral 27.1 % Grammar or 5682 out of 20,945 pupils.