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Education

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People who are in favour of grammar schools....

999 replies

BertrandRussell · 08/09/2016 17:28

....what is your proposal for the majority who are not selected?

OP posts:
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Sillybillybonker · 11/09/2016 13:31

Michael Murpurgo talking about failing his 11 Plus. www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37332415?SThisFB

goodbyestranger · 11/09/2016 13:32

alwayssurprised that's exactly the situation now though. Grammars don't get a penny extra and depending on where they are in the country, some are woefully underfunded. I agree that all kids should have the same government spend and I don't think there's a suggestion that grammars should have extra money for 'luxuries'.

alwayssurprised · 11/09/2016 13:36

goodbyestranger I think it would be the case for the grammars even now, but quite a number of posters are insisting money will be unfairly distributed favouring the selectives. I thought spelling it out right help.

alwayssurprised · 11/09/2016 13:36

Might help.

Sillybillybonker · 11/09/2016 13:40

What they would do is go to a private school if their parents could afford it. If they couldn't afford it they would have to go to the school without the bright middle class kids. That school would be drained of good teachers because they will have gone to the grammars and private schools. So, all the others would go to third rate schools. Who cares about the non-elite though? So long as the bright middle class children are OK, the others don't matter do they?

HPFA · 11/09/2016 13:50

Apparently TM has suggested that a grammar school could set up a new non-selective and pupils could move between them. Might be convenient to have them on the same site maybe? And with the same uniform? Much like a comprehensive in fact.

This isn't about academics this is about people wanting that "grammar school" label for their child.

MuseumOfCurry · 11/09/2016 13:58

"Imagine the howls of protest from middle class parents if their child's place at a Grammar isn't secure. Mind you, I would happily see a bright but lazy kid who can't be bothered to take advantage of the opportunities offered demoted"

Or the 14 year old suffering from a mental health problem which is impacting on their behaviour and attainment.

Mini, why wouldn't teachers take this into account like any other health issue impeding achievement?

I'd like to see the middle-class howling. That would be funny.

alwayssurprised · 11/09/2016 14:09

HPFA my children are not in secondary yet so maybe I am mistaken. The teaching staff in Comp, let's say a maths teacher, will have to teach both the bottom set and middle and the top set? I think there lies the problem, a teacher has limited time, if he or she can concentrate on and with just the top or the middle or the bottom, every one will be better served? They will get more time to get relevant training, and know what resources each group can have access to?

Sillybillybonker · 11/09/2016 14:35

Comprehensives tend to have more than 1 maths teacher. Isn't teaching different sets a bit like teaching different age groups?

BertrandRussell · 11/09/2016 14:41

My ds's secondary modern has 7 Maths sets. And several Maths teachers.

OP posts:
bojorojo · 11/09/2016 14:58

I too listened to Michael Morpurgo and found his experience totally different from any child today. He felt a failure bdcause his parents wanted him to pass but they ask gad paid for him to go to prep school. He Ajax had no preparation and didn't m is what the exams were about. His alternative was a fee paying public school so he hardly suffered in the long run.

sandyholme · 11/09/2016 15:03

I suppose this is what is meant of a Comprehensive area

Cheshire East not one school with less than 48% GCSE but no School with more than 78% GCSE !

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/compare-schools?phase=secondary&selectPhase=true

sandyholme · 11/09/2016 15:16

Table displaying Key stage 4 performance information.
England - all schools 611024 NA NA 53.80% 22.90% 55.80%
England - state-funded schools only 553446 71.10% 66.90% 57.10% 24.30% 59.20%
All Hallows Catholic College
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 203 English 77% Maths 74% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 69% English Baccalaureate 36% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 69%
Alsager School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 230 English 86% Maths 79% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 72% English Baccalaureate 31% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 73%
Congleton High School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 174 English 74% Maths 66% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 60% English Baccalaureate 16% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 61%
Eaton Bank Academy
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 156 English 57% Maths 73% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 59% English Baccalaureate 19% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 59%
Holmes Chapel Comprehensive School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 210 English 75% Maths 82% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 76% English Baccalaureate 32% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 77%
Knutsford Academy
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 198 English 69% Maths 67% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 59% English Baccalaureate 29% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 60%
Malbank School and Sixth Form College
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Type of school Maintained School Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 188 English 76% Maths 61% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 54% English Baccalaureate 17% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 61%
Middlewich High School
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Type of school Maintained School Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 141 English 74% Maths 61% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 55% English Baccalaureate 6% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 58%
Poynton High School
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Type of school Maintained School Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 246 English 63% Maths 70% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 63% English Baccalaureate 39% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 64%
Ruskin Community High School
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Type of school Maintained School Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 107 English 78% Maths 53% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 50% English Baccalaureate 19% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 51%
Sandbach High School and Sixth Form College
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 207 English 80% Maths 80% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 74% English Baccalaureate 43% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 75%
Sandbach School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 206 English 62% Maths 79% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 64% English Baccalaureate 19% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 65%
Sir William Stanier Community School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 184 English 67% Maths 59% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 43% English Baccalaureate 8% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 48%
St Thomas More Catholic High School, A Specialist School for Maths & ICT
Remove St Thomas More Catholic High School, A Specialist School for Maths & ICT from compare basket
Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 128 English 82% Maths 80% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 68% English Baccalaureate 32% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 70%
The Fallibroome Academy
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 234 English 82% Maths 82% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 78% English Baccalaureate 40% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 79%
The Macclesfield Academy
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 87 English 77% Maths 66% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 60% English Baccalaureate 32% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 60%
Tytherington School
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Type of school Academy Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 205 English 72% Maths 75% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 64% English Baccalaureate 40% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 65%
Wilmslow High School
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Type of school Maintained School Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 302 English 74% Maths 73% 5+ A-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs 70% English Baccalaureate 34% A-C in English and maths GCSEs 71%
2015 headline performance at key stage 4 (KS4) - all pupils
School name (Sorts by this column in descending order)
Type of school (Sorts by this column)
Number of pupils at the end of key stage 4 (Sorts by this column)
Made expected progress between KS2 and KS4 Achievement
English (Sorts by this column)
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Maths (Sorts by this column)
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5+ A*-C GCSEs or equivalent inc English & maths GCSEs (Sorts by this column)
English Baccalaureate (Sorts by this column)
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A*-C in English and maths GCSEs (Sorts by this column)
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Peregrina · 11/09/2016 16:26

Or the 14 year old suffering from a mental health problem which is impacting on their behaviour and attainment.

No, not the ones with mental health problems. But as a comprehensive supporter, I wasn't serious.

The conscientious children, who aren't especially academic, are a category that tends to get overlooked, because they keep their heads down and get on with the work, but don't get the prizes or don't get the attention that the trouble makers draw to themselves.

minifingerz · 11/09/2016 16:57

"His alternative was a fee paying public school so he hardly suffered in the long run"

He felt he had let his parents down and felt ashamed at failing. He has never forgotten those feelings.

goodbyestranger · 11/09/2016 16:58

Peregrina the key thing is to get the test right at the 11+ stage and then not get into muddied waters with transfers except in exceptional circumstances.

goodbyestranger · 11/09/2016 17:01

Well the Morpurgo parents are wholly to blame in those circumstances, not the system itself - the system can't be modelled around pushy overbearing parents who expect too much of their child.

Peregrina · 11/09/2016 17:20

to get the test right at the 11+ stage

How will this be done?

bojorojo · 11/09/2016 17:26

Apologies for my wonky post. I didn't use my glasses! However, the problem with the Michael Morpurgo example is that he had the fall-back position of a public school. He didn't go to a secondary modern.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove, sandyholme. Most comprehensives lose children to the private sector who are bright. Many comprehensives have cohorts of lower achieving children that are 20% or bigger. Some will have the lower level of middle achieving children who struggle to get the GCSEs with Maths and English. You really need to look at the value added and not attainment results.

Regarding funding, the big difference between schools is now pupil premium funding and largely this is not going to the grammar schools. Where I live it is the secondary moderns that are the recipients and the grammar schools are howling. The other problem is that the amount spent per capita in free schools is much higher than in academy converter or LA schools. Generally they start with few pupils so their costs per pupil are high if they are to deliver a broad and balanced curriculum. The money they get reduces the amounts given to the LA for the other schools. If a new grammar was a free school, it almost certainly would get more money per child but little PP money.

Most teachers, in most schools can teach all year groups and all abilities. The skill of the Head of Dept and the SLT is to get the right teacher for each set. Teachers with patience tend to like the lower achievers and those that want to crack on and prepare children for the best universities will teach the higher sets. There is a shortage of maths teachers for everyone so people have to teach "best fit".

In my LA, the biggest challenge is to make the secondary moderns outstanding. Only one of them is at the moment whereas 12 out of 13 grammars are. One big problem faced by the RI secondary modern schools, of which there are a few and 3 in one town, is that there are too few good teachers and learning suffers. No such problems in the grammar schools. This is not necessarily a secondary modern vs grammar school issue but it is a more attractive proposition to teach in an outstanding school with brilliant leadership than in one that is just so so.

mathsmum314 · 11/09/2016 18:57

Anyone know if this data exists? I can't find anything.
What is the long term benefit to any country in GDP, tax receipts or any way of a grammar system ie when you push academic children selectively. And what is the long term benefit with a comprehensive system ie when you push everyone 'equally'.

BoffinMum · 11/09/2016 20:23

The only data that exist are that the teen suicide rate goes up in relation to the selectivity of the education system.

bojorojo · 11/09/2016 20:57

No country has an identical school system so it would be impossible to tell. GDP is based on so many things! Education of the population is just one of them. However, any country that wishes to succeed must have a sound education system for all. No-one left behind. Everyone achieving as highly as possible. Grammar schools do not aid social mobility so if a comprehensive system does, then that is preferable. However no-one who is at a poor school is getting the best education. Too many children are in this situation but grammar schools will not reverse this for the majority. Good schools for everyone without selection would aid social mobility more .

BoffinMum · 13/09/2016 15:33

Yes, finding a link between education and the economy is like finding the holy grail. It's no doubt there, alongside lots of other factors, but stripping it out is nigh on impossible. There are also different ways of measuring the economy - GDP, GNP and so on - so it's a pig of a job to actually conclusively prove a link. Anyone who says they can is not being very honest.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 16:47

The teaching staff in Comp, let's say a maths teacher, will have to teach both the bottom set and middle and the top set? I think there lies the problem, a teacher has limited time, if he or she can concentrate on and with just the top or the middle or the bottom, every one will be better served?

I'm a maths teacher in a comp and I am thoroughly depressed at the thought that my comp might become a grammar (I suspect it could be earmarked as a MAT 'centre of excellence' - the other schools in our MAT becoming centres of mediocrity in comparison). I was talking to my mum and she said 'well wouldn't you love to teach at a grammar?'. No I fucking wouldn't. I taught top set GCSE last year, maths and further maths. I'm teaching middle set this year and will be getting borderline kids to pass the new GCSE. I teach A-level, and I've taught GCSE resit. At KS3 I teach sets from top to bottom. I don't want my lovely middle sets and below to be shunted off to some other school, given a poorer deal, probably worse teachers. THEY NEED ME TOO, and I love teaching them all.

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